Trayvon Martin shooting: Zimmerman says Trayvon decked him, then began hammering him

[2233boys]

Oh. "They" don't? I trust you've reviewed every occurance in the history of mankind of a citizens being concerned with suspicious activity?

Not a single one of them ever followed up on or ~gasp~ dared to say "What are you doing?"





Yeah... well.... thats like.... your opinion, man.

So he initiated the confrontation glad we agree.

Just like post 1621 was your opinion.

 

[Midswat]

So he initiated the confrontation glad we agree.

I've outlined what my thoughts are and who I think initiated what.

 

[Hoofbite]

I believe its pretty safe to conclude that Martin initiated the phyiscal confrontation, for the reasons I outlined in post 1621.

I didn't read the opinions you outlined. I may look them over but it doesn't give weight to either person being the "attacker".

No doubt about it. He was getting his ass kicked. Broken nose. Head pounded against the concrete. So we both agree he used the gun in self defense. Good.

Except I don't believe that instigating a fight in which you get your ass kicked is a reasonable defense.

Zimmerman has the defense of "fear for one's life" yet we can't even float the idea that maybe Trayvon felt threatened to an extent that he felt it was necessary to fight back.

The law is a bullshit law and I think they chose not to go that route because it was wouldn't change the ultimate outcome that Zimmerman ignored the dispatcher and took things into his own hands by following Trayvon.

Yeah but you see it's weird how these cases and that whole policework lawyering stuff how they have to piece together evidence and try to determine as best they can what happened and present their case to the jury who, crazy as it sounds having not actually been at the scene of the incident have to digest all information and guestimate what happened.

Yeah, I can see how pretending like we have the same evidence that the jury has and arriving at a conclusion before the jury has even heard all the evidence is entirely similar to actually being on the jury and evaluating all the evidence.

 

[Hoofbite]

Oh. "They" don't? I trust you've reviewed every occurance in the history of mankind of a citizens being concerned with suspicious activity?

Not a single one of them ever followed up on or ~gasp~ dared to say "What are you doing?"

Is that the standard we have to meet now? Review every case in all of history?

Nice approach. Rather than just be reasonable and say the guy overstepped his authority in pursuing someone he didn't even know anything about, we now have to review every case in all of history.

 

[Midswat]

Except I don't believe that instigating a fight in which you get your ass kicked is a reasonable defense.

Following someone and asking what they're doing isn't instigating a fight.

Zimmerman has the defense of "fear for one's life" yet we can't even float the idea that maybe Trayvon felt threatened to an extent that he felt it was necessary to fight back.

I guess it's possible but loses it's lusted when you're full mount on your opponent and he's screaming for help.

Yeah, I can see how pretending like we have the same evidence that the jury has and arriving at a conclusion before the jury has even heard all the evidence is entirely similar to actually being on the jury and evaluating all the evidence.

My comment wasn't to compare the evidence those of us who have closely followed the case have been exposed to the evidence in which the jury will eventually be exposed to. Rather, my comment was me poking fun at your assertation that no one really knows what happened. The jury will be left like many of us, making an educated guess on what they think happened based on what we now know.

Is that the standard we have to meet now? Review every case in all of history?

Nice approach. Rather than just be reasonable and say the guy overstepped his authority in pursuing someone he didn't even know anything about, we now have to review every case in all of history.

Well, when you decide to paint with such broad brushes...

 

[JBond]

The law is a bullshit law and I think they chose not to go that route because it was wouldn't change the ultimate outcome that Zimmerman ignored the dispatcher and took things into his own hands by following Trayvon.
.

Hmm. Except none of the information released to the public indicates that is what happened. In fact the 911 tape tells the opposite tale. There is no reason to make shit up. I am bothered by the lack of objectivity on display. Seems like a lot of people have issues with Jews. People have entrenched themselves on one side or the other for a reason. Those that believe an obviously violent and troubled teen attacked Zimmerman, just as he did to other innocent victims, have been labeled as racist. I guess that means Trayvon acolytes hate Hispanics and Jews.

 

[Hoofbite]

Following someone and asking what they're doing isn't instigating a fight.

Depends on how threatening you appear.

Watching someone from your car and then getting out to follow on foot might do it.

IMO, when someone who isn't doing anything wrong is minding their own business and you interject your sense of authority (which was based upon an incorrect assumption) into the mix, you're instigating.

I guess it's possible but loses it's lusted when you're full mount on your opponent and he's screaming for help.

Provided that was Zimmerman screaming but since the judge just ruled that neither side can have someone testify as to who it was I think it's pretty damn presumptious to say it was Zimmerman.

My comment wasn't to compare the evidence those of us who have closely followed the case have been exposed to the evidence in which the jury will eventually be exposed to. Rather, my comment was me poking fun at your assertation that no one really knows what happened. The jury will be left like many of us, making an educated guess on what they think happened based on what we now know.

No one does know what happened. Anyone on a message board who says they know what happened between the time that Zimmerman hung up and the time the screaming phone call came in is full of shit. Sorry, but that's the reality of the situation.

Well, when you decide to paint with such broad brushes...

I don't think it's painting with broad brushes to say he shouldn't have followed. Not when the Neighborhood Watch Organization says that they only report in addition to the fact that they don't carry weapons. The fact that he both pursued and was carrying a weapon is beyond any sort of authority granted to the "captain".

 

[Hoofbite]

Hmm. Except none of the information released to the public indicates that is what happened. In fact the 911 tape tells the opposite tale. There is no reason to make shit up. I am bothered by the lack of objectivity on display. Seems like a lot of people have issues with Jews. People have entrenched themselves on one side or the other for a reason. Those that believe an obviously violent and troubled teen attacked Zimmerman, just as he did to other innocent victims, have been labeled as racist. I guess that means Trayvon acolytes hate Hispanics and Jews.

The 911 call has Zimmerman being told not to follow him about 12 seconds after he exited his car.

What are you talking about?

 

[peplaw06]

This is what I think happened based on everything I've read/seen/heard to date...

I think Zimmerman saw Martin and considered his actions suspicious, based on recent events. Said that Martin was standing in the rain looking at houses and when he (Martin) saw Zimmerman watching him he (Martin) put his hoodie on and started walking. I thikn Zimmerman called 911 to report it, and started following him. I think Martin at one point ran to get away. I think Zimmerman at that point got out and started following. Then, started walking back to his truck. This was all when he was on the phone with 911, and can be corroborated (as best as possible) by the audio.

I think (again based on all read/seen/heard) that Zim returned to his truck, or was in close proximity to it. 911 asked him for his address and he said he didn't want to say it out loud because he didn't know where the guy was (I guess fear could be guy might hear and thus know his address). Before getting off the phone, Zim asked the 911 op if the cops could call him when they got there so he could tell them where he was, then the call ended.

That, to me, suggests Zimmerman didn't know where Martin was, and was going to walk around looking for him. And this is why I don't believe that Martin was trying to get away. It would seem he had ample opportunity.

After the call ends, no one really knows what happens, but from everything I've seen/read/heard, I can honestly say that I think Zimmerman did in fact go looking for Martin. I think Martin, instead of running home or running away, probably hung around and was keeping an eye on Zimmerman. I think Zimerman and Martin (obviously) crossed pathes. That was when the "Why are you following me" and "What are you doing here" comments took place, followed by the altercation.

Yes, I think Martin initiated the altercation.

I can honestly say it doesn't make an ounce of sense to me that Zimmermann would give so much details to the cops, telling them exactly where he was, and knowing they were close, to walk up to Martin and start a fist fight. If you listen to the 911 calls, I believe that theory is supported. Zimmerman, for the duration of the call, is completely calm. No flaring tempers. No raised voice. He's calm the whole time.

I think, obviously, Martin was beating Zimmerman pretty good. And I don't think it's out the realm that Zimmerman feared for his life, and pulled the trigger.

I don't know how it all happened, but I've listened to Zim's call into dispatch as well. My question is why would Zimmerman continue to follow Trayvon, and be outside his truck, after being specifically instructed not to follow him? He told the dispatch to look for him in his truck, he should have remained in his truck.

And I'm sorry, but if I'm being followed at night by someone, and I can't get away from that person, then I'm going to feel threatened. I've said this numerous times throughout this thread. And if I feel threatened and cannot remove myself from the threatening situation, then I'm going to attempt to defend myself.

Self defense is a very technical legal theory. Again, I've said this before in this thread, but I'll say it again here. In order to claim self-defense, you cannot be the instigator of the altercation, and you can only use reasonable force to defend yourself. You are only justified in doing what is reasonably necessary to defend yourself.

In this situation, I believe Trayvon was the person justified in using reasonable force to defend himself. The force he employed (assaulting with hands and fists) was reasonable given the threat a stranger following you in the dark poses. Zimmerman took unreasonable action by making this into a deadly situation. A bloody nose and a couple of lumps on your head doesn't mean you can shoot someone.

I have no idea how this case is going to turn out, and I am interested in hearing all of the evidence. This is just my preliminary opinion. But as I have also said a number of times... it's easy to claim self-defense when you're the only person who really knows what occurred. The only other person who knows what happened is dead. Jody Arias tried that tactic as well. Unless the facts are obvious, a self-defense theory is generally met with a healthy amount of suspicion.

 

[JBond]

The 911 call has Zimmerman being told not to follow him about 12 seconds after he exited his car.

What are you talking about?

What is your point? Maybe he complied. Maybe he was returning to his truck. Why did Trayvon hit him? None of us were there. Folks to the left of me assume Trayvon did nothing wrong. People to the right of me swear Zimmerman is innocent. Drawing firm conclusions based on incredibly bad reporting does not help either side.

 

[Hoofbite]

What is your point? Maybe he complied. Maybe he was returning to his truck. Why did Trayvon hit him? None of us were there. Folks to the left of me assume Trayvon did nothing wrong. People to the right of me swear Zimmerman is innocent. Drawing firm conclusions based on incredibly bad reporting does not help either side.

What do you mean, "what is your point"? The 911 audio details him only giving chase for like 12 seconds before being told not to. What are you are referring to in saying "making shit up"?

 

[iceberg]

Yeah let's ignore the wannabe cop who got his ass beat because he followed and then confronted the kid for no reason. Then when he gets his ass kicked, because of a confrontation he initiated, he shoots and kills the kid.

yea, let's classify him as a wanna be cop but let the wanna be gangster slide on skittles.

 

[iceberg]

Nobody knows if he did or didn't.

Not that it even matters, who the fuck is any single random Joe to follow and question someone else simply because that person suspects something?

who the fuck is any single person to walk in a gated high crime community looking in empty house windows w/o being questioned.

 

[iceberg]

Sure. But they don't follow and question people. He called the cops, his duty as both citizen and self-appointed "Captain" was fulfilled.

What he did after that was beyond either of those things.

and what trayvon did - how was that any better? i'm not picking a side, not at all.

i'm putting the same sense of self reliance on both parties.

 

[iceberg]

So he initiated the confrontation glad we agree.

Just like post 1621 was your opinion.

define "initiate confrontation".

and not in a manner that drive a goal here.

 

[iceberg]

Except I don't believe that instigating a fight in which you get your ass kicked is a reasonable defense.

by what? trayvon felt threatened? by what? is asking someone why you're looking in the windows of empty houses threatening?

 

[Hoofbite]

who the fuck is any single person to walk in a gated high crime community looking in empty house windows w/o being questioned.

and what trayvon did - how was that any better? i'm not picking a side, not at all.

i'm putting the same sense of self reliance on both parties.

To say you aren't picking sides while using a claim that at best would have come from Zimmerman himself is a bit questionable.

As far as what Trayvon did, it depends on what actually happened.

If he snuck up on George as George was returning to his truck as he was instructed and at the time he was instructed to do so, then sure, Trayvon would own some of the blame.

But if he was approached by some random person who was watching him from their car and then go out to pursue him on foot then I have a very hard time finding fault with him.

I find it awfully hard to believe that anyone in this thread who was being watched from a vehicle and then pursued on foot would look to calmly answer questions when someone caught up to them and asked, "what are you doing here"?

 

[Hoofbite]

by what? trayvon felt threatened? by what? is asking someone why you're looking in the windows of empty houses threatening?

Walk through a neighborhood you aren't particularly familiar with, yet have every right to be in, and see how you respond when someone eyes you down from their car and then gets out to follow you on foot.

The idea that this wouldn't be considered a threat is pretty laughable.

 

[iceberg]

To say you aren't picking sides while using a claim that at best would have come from Zimmerman himself is a bit questionable.

As far as what Trayvon did, it depends on what actually happened.

If he snuck up on George as George was returning to his truck as he was instructed and at the time he was instructed to do so, then sure, Trayvon would own some of the blame.

But if he was approached by some random person who was watching him from their car and then go out to pursue him on foot then I have a very hard time finding fault with him.

I find it awfully hard to believe that anyone in this thread who was being watched from a vehicle and then pursued on foot would look to calmly answer questions when someone caught up to them and asked, "what are you doing here"?

then put yourself in that situation.

you're expelled from school. you're in a gated community. you're looking in windows of houses.

someone wants to know why.

they don't know your entire history but they know the history of their own home. and it sucks. people get robbed all the time and something must be done. we can freely judge one side over the other and lay on labels as we see fit but we can't ever put our own mindset into that night.

ever.

so we should fall back on common sense.

both were on edge. one for being tired of his neighborhood getting robbed a lot, the other for being expelled from school.

who over-reacted? zimmerman for wanting to stop a robbery, or trayvon for picking a fight?

yes, that's speculation.

what else do we have?

if i'm a stranger in a strange land, i have things to prove. there are many ways i can do it. is the one i need to prove it to the right one? no. not necessarily. but i could still play it cool and just say i'm here visiting my dad.

i simply don't and will never understand how it's a crime to ask someone why they're in my neighborhood but it's ok to beat the shit out of the person asking me.

we need to find some common ground or just walk away.

 

[iceberg]

Walk through a neighborhood you aren't particularly familiar with, yet have every right to be in, and see how you respond when someone eyes you down from their car and then gets out to follow you on foot.

The idea that this wouldn't be considered a threat is pretty laughable.

it would be tense, to be sure. i would defuse the situation by being calm.

non issue.