jiggyfly

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Changing stories create "doubt" in the average juror's mind. Doubt = Z skips.

The doubt that is created is with Zimmermans story, these witnesses were initially backing him up.

I am not saying this bolsters the prosecutors case but it weakens Zimmermans.

I don't understand why you think this hurts the prosecutions case these would have been defense witnesses if anything.
 

bbgun

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The doubt that is created is with Zimmermans story, these witnesses were initially backing him up.

I am not saying this bolsters the prosecutors case but it weakens Zimmermans.

I don't understand why you think this hurts the prosecutions case these would have been defense witnesses if anything.

His story hasn't changed; theirs have. The only thing damaged is the witnesses' credibility.
 
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?

If the state is filing charges, the burden of proof is on them. Hell, Z doesn't even have to take the stand. Assuming he has a competent attorney, the witnesses' evolving stories will be attacked on cross.
The burden of proof is on the state to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Z killed Martin. At this point, there's no doubt he did. Z has to prove that his actions were justified or excused in some way, the self-defense theory. HE has to prove it was self-defense. The witnesses saying that Martin was on top of Z and beating Z helped him to that end. Them changing their stories doesn't.
 
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His story hasn't changed; theirs have. The only thing damaged is the witnesses' credibility.
Their credibility is essential if they were going to testify to facts that bolstered his self-defense theory. They weren't initially going to help the state's case anyway.
 

jiggyfly

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His story hasn't changed; theirs have. The only thing damaged is the witnesses' credibility.

His story has changed lol


he was attacked when he got out of his car to find the address.

He was attacked on his way back to his vehicle after following Martin.



And once again these were his witnesses so since they are no longer credible, that in turn hurts him.
 

lons

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Their credibility is essential if they were going to testify to facts that bolstered his self-defense theory. They weren't initially going to help the state's case anyway.


The point is they have already been quoted as saying this or that. If they recant now, every Juror (yeah right they've not heard anything) will have already heard what they said to begin with and no amount of backtracking and swearing to it on a Bible will change the first impression.
 

bbgun

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Their credibility is essential if they were going to testify to facts that bolstered his self-defense theory. They weren't initially going to help the state's case anyway.

He has the photos and medical reports. He doesn't really
need them anymore to prove that his life was threatened. And he still has witnesses in his corner who back up his side of the story--witnesses who haven't done a sudden 180.
 

bbgun

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The burden of proof is on the state to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Z killed Martin. At this point, there's no doubt he did. Z has to prove that his actions were justified or excused in some way, the self-defense theory. HE has to prove it was self-defense. The witnesses saying that Martin was on top of Z and beating Z helped him to that end. Them changing their stories doesn't.

Ok, now I get what you're saying. To me, poking holes in the state's case is not the same as accepting a burden of proof, but whatever.
 

bbgun

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Uhh, what? Zimmerman is the defendant. Since when does the burden of proof fall on the defendent?

He's saying that the only way for Z to beat the rap is for his team to prove that he acted in self-defense.
 

jiggyfly

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He has the photos and medical reports. He doesn't really
need them anymore to prove that his life was threatened. And he still has witnesses in his corner who back up his side of the story--witnesses who haven't done a sudden 180.

Those injuries are at the very least debatable about being life threatening.

The fact he refused to go to the hospital and needed no bandaging or stitches raise some serious doubts about his life being threatened,

There are also witnesses that back up the states claim, did you miss them?
 
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The point is they have already been quoted as saying this or that. If they recant now, every Juror (yeah right they've not heard anything) will have already heard what they said to begin with and no amount of backtracking and swearing to it on a Bible will change the first impression.
If jurors start basing their verdict on what they heard in the media, it will be a monumental failure of the attorneys and the judge. I know it's hard for you to believe that jurors take their jobs seriously, but most of them do once their empaneled.
 

NoDak

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He's saying that the only way for Z to beat the rap is for his team to prove that he acted in self-defense.

Seen that. That's why I changed my post to nominate you as new board lawyer.

Speaking of which, I have a case against some fat dude on another board. How much is your retainer?
 
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He has the photos and medical reports. He doesn't really
need them anymore to prove that his life was threatened. And he still has witnesses in his corner who back up his side of the story--witnesses who haven't done a sudden 180.
The important part of the self-defense theory isn't that his life was threatened... both of their lives were threatened. But if there are witnesses out there who say that Z was the instigator and had the upper hand in the skirmish, then it's going to be harder to prove self-defense. It's not unusual for a killer to have injuries, and it's not dispositive of a murder charge.
 
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Ok, now I get what you're saying. To me, poking holes in the state's case is not the same as accepting a burden of proof, but whatever.
Well, to be fair, there are different levels of burden of proof. IIRC the self-defense burden of proof is preponderance of the evidence, not beyond a reasonable doubt. It might be clear & convincing though. I don't know off the top of my head... would have to research it.
 

bbgun

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Those injuries are at the very least debatable about being life threatening.

Get back to me when your head is being slammed into concrete by someone younger and stronger than you.

The fact he refused to go to the hospital and needed no bandaging or stitches raise some serious doubts about his life being threatened,

There are also witnesses that back up the states claim, did you miss them?

lol

Z's critics first said he had no injuries, and now they're saying they're no big deal. You really gotta get your stories straight.

Yes, I'm aware the state has pro-TM witnesses, but Z has proof of injuries and witnesses of his own. Result: reasonable doubt.
 

lons

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If jurors start basing their verdict on what they heard in the media, it will be a monumental failure of the attorneys and the judge. I know it's hard for you to believe that jurors take their jobs seriously, but most of them do once their empaneled.

Yup, that OJ Simpson jury sure did. They didn't believe a word the media said. Cassy Mathews... Hrmmm, how many of these high profile cases actually end in a conviction? Seems like the more the media wants a dagger through the heart the least likely a judgement against he person is arrived at.
 

jiggyfly

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Get back to me when your head is being slammed into concrete by someone younger and stronger than you.



lol

Z's critics first said he had no injuries, and now they're saying they're no big deal. You really gotta get your stories straight.

Yes, I'm aware the state has pro-TM witnesses, but Z has proof of injuries and witnesses of his own. Result: reasonable doubt.

What do the "critics" have to do with this?

We are talking about the evidence as it will be presented to a jury and those injuries and pictures don't exactly scream life threatening.

I have always said this a tough case but this latest development hurts Zimmerman more than it helps.

I will not be surprised at all if he is acquitted and I am leaning more towards a hung jury and a plea deal for probation as the final outcome.
 

bbgun

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The important part of the self-defense theory isn't that his life was threatened... both of their lives were threatened. But if there are witnesses out there who say that Z was the instigator and had the upper hand in the skirmish, then it's going to be harder to prove self-defense. It's not unusual for a killer to have injuries, and it's not dispositive of a murder charge.

Define "instigator"? Did Z deserve to be attacked just because he stopped or questioned Martin? He had a Constitutional right to do exactly that. If I criticize a fellow driver in Walmart's parking lot for taking up two spaces, does he have a right to kick my head in just because I initiated the encounter? Of course, these hypotheticals are based on Z's side of the story, and he could very well be lying through his teeth. If the prosecutor proves exactly that, I'll have zero sympathy for him. But the rush to judgment by the media and assorted race hustlers has been appalling.
 
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