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peplaw06
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If you throw the mandatory 20 year minimum at Zimmerman, he might well fold shop and cop a plea for a lesser included for a fewer number of years. Not that I think Corey would do that. Too much political pressure. Regardless, the jury can convict him of a lesser included offense, even if Murder 2 is the charge. It never hurts a prosecutor to charge the highest possible offense they even think there is a shot to prove and back off from there.
Yeah, I don't know what the ACLU has said regarding this. Way too political for my tastes. I would think with the racial issues they would be hesitant to come out as Z backers. But who knows.
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Unless they're spooked by the racial composition of the jury and the possibility of nullification, I think they'll call the DA's bluff and reject all plea deals. They know she's playing a weak hand.
Really? That sucks. For the edification of us non-lawyers, can the DA pull the Murder II charge and charge him with simple manslaughter instead, or is it too late?
I thought it was M2 or bust, not "anything up to and including" M2. Seems kinda unfair to the defendant.
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peplaw06
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You're probably right.
The DA can dismiss the Murder 2 and indict him on manslaughter really at any point.
It all depends on how the prosecutor proceeds. In the Casey Anthony trial, the prosecutors made the mistake of not advocating for the lesser included offenses, and she got acquitted. I think in this kind of unique case, the state will definitely argue the lesser includeds.
And yes, it's hard to be a defendant in this system. 90% of the time defendants weigh the costs of trial and the risks of what they could be dealt as punishment and take the best deal they can get.
lons
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I truly don't get the Koch brothers thing. Especially after proof was shown that the Unions DWARFED their spending
Cythim
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You can't say spook in a thread about black being being killed. That is racist.
jiggyfly
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I truly don't get the Koch brothers thing. Especially after proof was shown that the Unions DWARFED their spending
Its really pretty simple the Koch brothers are holding a lot of influence that would benefit them personally while unions are representing a wide swath of people, which one is more representative of a democracy?
The question is do you want that much power in the hands of a few people.
This is probably a topic that needs its own thread.
jiggyfly
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Sun May 20, 2012 at 01:36 PM PDT
Was the fighting over when Zimmerman shot Trayvon?
by Patriot Daily News ClearinghouseFollow
Pundits went a little crazy with their "assessment" of the Zimmerman document dump of evidence last week, claiming that the Special Prosecutor Angela Corey was nuts to charge Zimmerman with second degree murder. Corey felt it necessary to remind them that the "public doesn't know everything" yet because there's "a lot that we cannot release by law." For example, Zimmerman's 3 statements to the police and his video-taped reenactment with the police were not released because confessions are not public records under Florida law. Zimmerman's cell phone records have also not been released, which include text messages he sent after the shooting: "Some of them disparage leaders of "Justice for Trayvon" rallies with language described as offensive." There is also Zimmerman's correspondence with a supporter while he was in jail, and if it's authenticity is confirmed, Zimmerman wrote that "this will all work out for me in the future," and wrote the day before his bond hearing that he "will put funds received through my website towards my bond." If authentic, this is important because Judge Lester stated at the bond hearing that he "wanted to know more information about the money and what Zimmerman knew before deciding whether to revoke or raise his bond."
While the media proclaimed that Zimmerman's injuries proved that he was defending himself, the evidence is also consistent with Trayvon defending himself from a man who hunted and chased him down with a gun. The evidence indicates that Zimmerman might have been the first physical aggressor who knocked Trayvon down on the ground and then got on top of him. There is also evidence that indicates that while the two had a physical fight, the fighting stopped before Zimmerman shot Trayvon.
As more facts are disclosed, Zimmerman's story is hit by a pile of inconsistencies.
The nature of Zimmerman's injuries can be instructive on whether he reasonably believed deadly force was necessary to prevent death or great bodily injury. Some facts suggest that Zimmerman did not consider his injuries so serious or life-threatening either on the night he killed Trayvon, or the next day. Zimmerman "claimed he was in a fight for his life," yet he rejected going to a hospital for medical treatment. At least 3 times the police offered Zimmerman the chance to be taken to the hospital the night he killed Trayvon, but he declined. The medical report states that Zimmerman saw his personal doctor the following day because he "needed to be legally cleared to return to his job." Zimmerman also rejected his doctor's advice to see an ear, nose and throat doctor.
Zimmerman's story is that his head was being beat against the sidewalk or pavement for "over a minute," but one officer noted that Zimmerman's "back was wet and soiled, as if he'd been in grass," which is consistent with crime scene photos showing the fight location was the grassy courtyard. The medical report also shows that Zimmerman was "not diagnosed with a concussion." Another key fact about the medical report is that Zimmerman's doctor included a self-serving statement that Zimmerman "fired [his gun] at the attacker, killing him."
In terms of who was the initial aggressor, Zimmerman stated that "he shot the teenager in self-defense only after Martin attacked him as he was walking back to his truck," but this claim is not supported by the facts. The prosecutor maintains that Zimmerman instigated this fight and killing because Zimmerman profiled Trayvon and then followed him, even running after Trayvon.
Trayvon told his girlfriend, known as DeeDee, that Zimmerman was sitting in a car, watching him. So, Trayvon started walking because he said the man was "crazy and creepy," and then Zimmerman got out of his car, and started following Trayvon on foot. These facts are not contested but supported by Zimmerman's 9-11 call.
DeeDee and the police say that Martin was running to his father's house. DeeDee
could hear Trayvon running: She could hear the "wind blowing in the phone's speaker" and hear Trayvon "breathing hard." One witness confirmed that she saw one man chasing another man, and then shortly thereafter there was a fistfight followed by a gunshot.
Trayvon thought he had lost Zimmerman, but then told DeeDee that he was "being pursued again" by Zimmerman.
A sense of urgency grew. Mr. Martin alerted the girl to the fact that Mr. Zimmerman “was getting close to him.” She strongly urged him to run, but she could tell he did not because he was out of breath and tired, and kept saying he was close to the town house where he was a guest.
DeeDee heard the initial contact between Martin and Zimmerman when the two exchanged questions, she heard someone "bump" Trayvon, and then heard Trayvon telling Zimmerman to "get off," indicating that the fight might have started with Zimmerman pushing Trayvon down on the ground and climbing on top of him:
The girl, who talked with Mr. Martin several times that evening, told the investigator that she then heard Mr. Martin ask, “Why are you following me for?” She heard the other man ask, “What are you doing around here?” Earlier, Mr. Martin had temporarily sought cover from the rain by one of the buildings.
After calling out “Trayvon” several times over the phone, and getting no response, she heard somebody bump Mr. Martin.
Subsequently she heard him utter what sounded like, “Get off, get off.” Then the call ended.
Media reports highlight that witnesses have provided inconsistent statements about whether Zimmerman or Trayvon was on top of the other person when the two were on the ground fighting. Two witnesses saw Zimmerman on top of Trayvon during the fight, and one witness stated that he saw Trayvon "throwing punches" when he was on top of Zimmerman. While witnesses can have contradictory statements, it's also possible that witnesses provided accurate reports of what they saw at different points in time of this fight. It seems that at the end of the fight, Trayvon was on top of Zimmerman. But, DeeDee's account indicates that the fight might have started with Zimmerman on top of Trayvon.
Zimmerman has not been consistent about why he felt the need to shoot Trayvon. Right after the shooting, Zimmerman told one witness that he "shot this guy in self-defense" because "this guy he was beating up on me so I had to shoot him." Zimmerman also stated that "he only shot him when he thought Martin was reaching for his gun."
It also appears that the physical confrontation did not last long and the fighting may have actually stopped before Zimmerman pressed his gun against Trayvon's chest and fired. "An analysis of scrapings from underneath the teenager's fingernails did not contain any of Zimmerman's DNA, as might rub off in the case of a "prolonged struggle". Trayvon did not have a lot of injuries (aside from gunshot), but had a single "small abrasion on his left ring finger" about a "quarter-inch in size." At some point, a witness heard Zimmerman announce that "I’ve got a gun. I’ve got a gun." So the actual fight might not have been as intense as Zimmerman claimed when he stated he was fighting for his life. It's also possible that the fighting stopped once Zimmerman announced that he had a gun.
Whatever the reason, a witness stated that "there was no physical fighting at the time when the gunshot rang out." This account was confirmed by another witness and an expert (or the expert confirmed the statements by one witness, the record is not clear). The Washington Post hired an expert to analyze the background voices picked up in her 9-11 call, which recorded what was happening when Trayvon was shot. The expert, Alan R. Reich, "a former University of Washington professor with a doctorate in speech science who has worked for prosecutors and defense attorneys in hundreds of criminal and civil cases over a period of more than 35 years," says he is "certain" the call documents Trayvon pleading for his life:
One of those experts is Alan R. Reich, and his answer is that he is certain he can hear a young man he concludes is Martin pleading for his life, from the start of the 45-second recording until the end.
“I’m begging you,” he hears the younger of the two men yell as the recording begins.
Twenty-six seconds later: “Help me.”
In the last second before the gunshot: a high-pitched “Stop!”
Throughout the 45-second call, "the voice Reich believes to be Martin’s was “extraordinarily stressed, frightened and desperate,” he concluded."
Reich also noted what he did NOT hear:
What also struck Reich as he played and replayed the recording was what he did not hear: no sound of the older voice screaming, no obvious sounds of a physical struggle.
“Acoustical evidence of slapping, punching, shoving, wrestling, falling, throwing objects, was noticeably absent,” Reich said.
Reich says his analysis does not "discount the possibility that there was a physical struggle" between Trayvon and Zimmerman. But his analysis suggests, similar to one witness, that "whatever physical struggle occurred was over by the time the recorded 911 call began."
From that point until the gunshot 45 seconds later, Reich said, it is Zimmerman who seems to have the upper hand, not Martin.
“It is Trayvon who felt threatened,” Reich said. “The help cries are all Trayvon.”
A second expert, James J. Ryan, "who has testified against other audio recording experts in trials," says the recording was such degraded quality that "it's hard to scientifically say anything definitive." Ryan did not hear Reich's enhanced segments and did not specifically criticize his work but focused on "the vulnerabilities in any expert analysis" of this 45-second recording.
Even if this recording is so degraded that words can not be determined, unless it is also so degraded that silence is also not detectible, the very silence at the time of the shooting indicates that there might have been a pause or ending of a physical fight that Zimmerman claims was the reason he had no choice but to kill Trayvon.
Zimmerman told police that "Martin did not die immediately but mumbled either "it's over" or "you got me."
Was the fighting over when Zimmerman shot Trayvon?
by Patriot Daily News ClearinghouseFollow
Pundits went a little crazy with their "assessment" of the Zimmerman document dump of evidence last week, claiming that the Special Prosecutor Angela Corey was nuts to charge Zimmerman with second degree murder. Corey felt it necessary to remind them that the "public doesn't know everything" yet because there's "a lot that we cannot release by law." For example, Zimmerman's 3 statements to the police and his video-taped reenactment with the police were not released because confessions are not public records under Florida law. Zimmerman's cell phone records have also not been released, which include text messages he sent after the shooting: "Some of them disparage leaders of "Justice for Trayvon" rallies with language described as offensive." There is also Zimmerman's correspondence with a supporter while he was in jail, and if it's authenticity is confirmed, Zimmerman wrote that "this will all work out for me in the future," and wrote the day before his bond hearing that he "will put funds received through my website towards my bond." If authentic, this is important because Judge Lester stated at the bond hearing that he "wanted to know more information about the money and what Zimmerman knew before deciding whether to revoke or raise his bond."
While the media proclaimed that Zimmerman's injuries proved that he was defending himself, the evidence is also consistent with Trayvon defending himself from a man who hunted and chased him down with a gun. The evidence indicates that Zimmerman might have been the first physical aggressor who knocked Trayvon down on the ground and then got on top of him. There is also evidence that indicates that while the two had a physical fight, the fighting stopped before Zimmerman shot Trayvon.
As more facts are disclosed, Zimmerman's story is hit by a pile of inconsistencies.
The nature of Zimmerman's injuries can be instructive on whether he reasonably believed deadly force was necessary to prevent death or great bodily injury. Some facts suggest that Zimmerman did not consider his injuries so serious or life-threatening either on the night he killed Trayvon, or the next day. Zimmerman "claimed he was in a fight for his life," yet he rejected going to a hospital for medical treatment. At least 3 times the police offered Zimmerman the chance to be taken to the hospital the night he killed Trayvon, but he declined. The medical report states that Zimmerman saw his personal doctor the following day because he "needed to be legally cleared to return to his job." Zimmerman also rejected his doctor's advice to see an ear, nose and throat doctor.
Zimmerman's story is that his head was being beat against the sidewalk or pavement for "over a minute," but one officer noted that Zimmerman's "back was wet and soiled, as if he'd been in grass," which is consistent with crime scene photos showing the fight location was the grassy courtyard. The medical report also shows that Zimmerman was "not diagnosed with a concussion." Another key fact about the medical report is that Zimmerman's doctor included a self-serving statement that Zimmerman "fired [his gun] at the attacker, killing him."
In terms of who was the initial aggressor, Zimmerman stated that "he shot the teenager in self-defense only after Martin attacked him as he was walking back to his truck," but this claim is not supported by the facts. The prosecutor maintains that Zimmerman instigated this fight and killing because Zimmerman profiled Trayvon and then followed him, even running after Trayvon.
Trayvon told his girlfriend, known as DeeDee, that Zimmerman was sitting in a car, watching him. So, Trayvon started walking because he said the man was "crazy and creepy," and then Zimmerman got out of his car, and started following Trayvon on foot. These facts are not contested but supported by Zimmerman's 9-11 call.
DeeDee and the police say that Martin was running to his father's house. DeeDee
could hear Trayvon running: She could hear the "wind blowing in the phone's speaker" and hear Trayvon "breathing hard." One witness confirmed that she saw one man chasing another man, and then shortly thereafter there was a fistfight followed by a gunshot.
Trayvon thought he had lost Zimmerman, but then told DeeDee that he was "being pursued again" by Zimmerman.
A sense of urgency grew. Mr. Martin alerted the girl to the fact that Mr. Zimmerman “was getting close to him.” She strongly urged him to run, but she could tell he did not because he was out of breath and tired, and kept saying he was close to the town house where he was a guest.
DeeDee heard the initial contact between Martin and Zimmerman when the two exchanged questions, she heard someone "bump" Trayvon, and then heard Trayvon telling Zimmerman to "get off," indicating that the fight might have started with Zimmerman pushing Trayvon down on the ground and climbing on top of him:
The girl, who talked with Mr. Martin several times that evening, told the investigator that she then heard Mr. Martin ask, “Why are you following me for?” She heard the other man ask, “What are you doing around here?” Earlier, Mr. Martin had temporarily sought cover from the rain by one of the buildings.
After calling out “Trayvon” several times over the phone, and getting no response, she heard somebody bump Mr. Martin.
Subsequently she heard him utter what sounded like, “Get off, get off.” Then the call ended.
Media reports highlight that witnesses have provided inconsistent statements about whether Zimmerman or Trayvon was on top of the other person when the two were on the ground fighting. Two witnesses saw Zimmerman on top of Trayvon during the fight, and one witness stated that he saw Trayvon "throwing punches" when he was on top of Zimmerman. While witnesses can have contradictory statements, it's also possible that witnesses provided accurate reports of what they saw at different points in time of this fight. It seems that at the end of the fight, Trayvon was on top of Zimmerman. But, DeeDee's account indicates that the fight might have started with Zimmerman on top of Trayvon.
Zimmerman has not been consistent about why he felt the need to shoot Trayvon. Right after the shooting, Zimmerman told one witness that he "shot this guy in self-defense" because "this guy he was beating up on me so I had to shoot him." Zimmerman also stated that "he only shot him when he thought Martin was reaching for his gun."
It also appears that the physical confrontation did not last long and the fighting may have actually stopped before Zimmerman pressed his gun against Trayvon's chest and fired. "An analysis of scrapings from underneath the teenager's fingernails did not contain any of Zimmerman's DNA, as might rub off in the case of a "prolonged struggle". Trayvon did not have a lot of injuries (aside from gunshot), but had a single "small abrasion on his left ring finger" about a "quarter-inch in size." At some point, a witness heard Zimmerman announce that "I’ve got a gun. I’ve got a gun." So the actual fight might not have been as intense as Zimmerman claimed when he stated he was fighting for his life. It's also possible that the fighting stopped once Zimmerman announced that he had a gun.
Whatever the reason, a witness stated that "there was no physical fighting at the time when the gunshot rang out." This account was confirmed by another witness and an expert (or the expert confirmed the statements by one witness, the record is not clear). The Washington Post hired an expert to analyze the background voices picked up in her 9-11 call, which recorded what was happening when Trayvon was shot. The expert, Alan R. Reich, "a former University of Washington professor with a doctorate in speech science who has worked for prosecutors and defense attorneys in hundreds of criminal and civil cases over a period of more than 35 years," says he is "certain" the call documents Trayvon pleading for his life:
One of those experts is Alan R. Reich, and his answer is that he is certain he can hear a young man he concludes is Martin pleading for his life, from the start of the 45-second recording until the end.
“I’m begging you,” he hears the younger of the two men yell as the recording begins.
Twenty-six seconds later: “Help me.”
In the last second before the gunshot: a high-pitched “Stop!”
Throughout the 45-second call, "the voice Reich believes to be Martin’s was “extraordinarily stressed, frightened and desperate,” he concluded."
Reich also noted what he did NOT hear:
What also struck Reich as he played and replayed the recording was what he did not hear: no sound of the older voice screaming, no obvious sounds of a physical struggle.
“Acoustical evidence of slapping, punching, shoving, wrestling, falling, throwing objects, was noticeably absent,” Reich said.
Reich says his analysis does not "discount the possibility that there was a physical struggle" between Trayvon and Zimmerman. But his analysis suggests, similar to one witness, that "whatever physical struggle occurred was over by the time the recorded 911 call began."
From that point until the gunshot 45 seconds later, Reich said, it is Zimmerman who seems to have the upper hand, not Martin.
“It is Trayvon who felt threatened,” Reich said. “The help cries are all Trayvon.”
A second expert, James J. Ryan, "who has testified against other audio recording experts in trials," says the recording was such degraded quality that "it's hard to scientifically say anything definitive." Ryan did not hear Reich's enhanced segments and did not specifically criticize his work but focused on "the vulnerabilities in any expert analysis" of this 45-second recording.
Even if this recording is so degraded that words can not be determined, unless it is also so degraded that silence is also not detectible, the very silence at the time of the shooting indicates that there might have been a pause or ending of a physical fight that Zimmerman claims was the reason he had no choice but to kill Trayvon.
Zimmerman told police that "Martin did not die immediately but mumbled either "it's over" or "you got me."
lons
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You didn't even read the chart huh? EVERY individual union on that list holds more power than the Koch Brothers put together. It's like complaining that 1/40 of a pie is to much for an industry to hold when the rest of the pie was eaten by 1 thing under various other names.
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Apparently, only eeeeevil Republicans are motivated by self-interest. Hollywood and Silicon Valley? They give to Obama out of the goodness of their hearts and ask for nothing in return. Swearsies.
jiggyfly
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You missed my point the union acts in the interest of its members meaning they are benefiting the masses, the Kochs are acting in the interest of there bottom line which hurts the masses.
They have very right to do so but I want my political leaders to be acting for the interest of the many instead of a couple of rich guys,
Do you think the Kochs are looking out for your interest or the interest of the country as a whole.
I don't know how you equate a union with a single person?
jiggyfly
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Ok smart guy what does Hollywood get from the government.
Are they trying to hold down wages and benefits for there unions are they asking for deregulation of environmental policies?
Bob Sacamano
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So
Is Zimmerman guilty or innocent?
Is Zimmerman guilty or innocent?
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1) Personal access to Obama. Does your average blue-collar worker enjoy that? That'd be "no."
2) Pressuring Obama to change his gay marriage stance. Hollywood is notoriously pro-gay marriage, and they were none too happy with Obama's defense of traditional marriage. Furthermore, one in six top Obama money bundlers identify as gay. So faster than you can say flip-flop, Obama suddenly and disingenuously embraces purple pride and immediately sets off for a lucrative fundraiser at George Clooney's house in LA, raking in a record $15 million. Perhaps you're the only one in the world who thinks this was a coincidence.
jiggyfly
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I would love to debate this further but we are hijacking another thread.
We will just agree to disagree.
Bob Sacamano
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translation: "I unfurl the white flag, waving it vigorously."
for the simpletons: "UNCLE!!!"
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Trayvon Martin shooting: Witnesses change stories ahead of Zimmerman trial
Four witnesses in the Trayvon Martin case have changed their stories, some "in ways that may damage" George Zimmerman, the Orlando Sentinel reports.
According to records released last week in the second-degree murder case, the witnesses--all of them neighbors--were interviewed multiple times by police and special prosecutors about what they saw on Feb. 26, the night Zimmerman fatally shot Martin in Sanford, Fla.
Four days after the shooting, one woman told police she "saw two guys running" and then "a fistfight--just fists, I don't know who was hitting who." But on March 20, she told investigators she saw just one person.
"I couldn't tell you if it was a man, a woman, a kid, black or white," the woman, "Witness 2," said. "I couldn't tell you because it was dark and because I didn't have my contacts on or glasses. I just know I saw a person out there."
Another witness, who was initially interviewed on March 20, said she saw two people on the ground immediately after the shooting, but was not sure who was on top.
But in another interview with investigators six days later, the paper reported, she was sure: It was Zimmerman on top.
"I know after seeing the TV of what's happening, comparing their sizes, I think Zimmerman was definitely on top because of his size," the woman, "Witness 12," said.
A third witness, "Witness 6," told police on the night of the shooting he saw a black man on top of a lighter-skinned man "just throwing down blows on the guy, MMA-style." He said the light-skinned man was calling for help. Interviewed later by investigators, he said he was not sure who was calling for help, and is not sure any punches were thrown.
A fourth witness also interviewed on the night of the shooting said he heard the shooting, ran outside, and saw Zimmerman standing with "blood on the back of his head." According to "Witness 13," Zimmerman told him that Martin "was beating up on me, so I had to shoot him."
A month later, the same witness described Zimmerman's demeanor: "[It was] not like 'I can't believe I just shot someone!' It was more like, 'Just tell my wife I shot somebody,' like it was nothing."
Four witnesses in the Trayvon Martin case have changed their stories, some "in ways that may damage" George Zimmerman, the Orlando Sentinel reports.
According to records released last week in the second-degree murder case, the witnesses--all of them neighbors--were interviewed multiple times by police and special prosecutors about what they saw on Feb. 26, the night Zimmerman fatally shot Martin in Sanford, Fla.
Four days after the shooting, one woman told police she "saw two guys running" and then "a fistfight--just fists, I don't know who was hitting who." But on March 20, she told investigators she saw just one person.
"I couldn't tell you if it was a man, a woman, a kid, black or white," the woman, "Witness 2," said. "I couldn't tell you because it was dark and because I didn't have my contacts on or glasses. I just know I saw a person out there."
Another witness, who was initially interviewed on March 20, said she saw two people on the ground immediately after the shooting, but was not sure who was on top.
But in another interview with investigators six days later, the paper reported, she was sure: It was Zimmerman on top.
"I know after seeing the TV of what's happening, comparing their sizes, I think Zimmerman was definitely on top because of his size," the woman, "Witness 12," said.
A third witness, "Witness 6," told police on the night of the shooting he saw a black man on top of a lighter-skinned man "just throwing down blows on the guy, MMA-style." He said the light-skinned man was calling for help. Interviewed later by investigators, he said he was not sure who was calling for help, and is not sure any punches were thrown.
A fourth witness also interviewed on the night of the shooting said he heard the shooting, ran outside, and saw Zimmerman standing with "blood on the back of his head." According to "Witness 13," Zimmerman told him that Martin "was beating up on me, so I had to shoot him."
A month later, the same witness described Zimmerman's demeanor: "[It was] not like 'I can't believe I just shot someone!' It was more like, 'Just tell my wife I shot somebody,' like it was nothing."