Trayvon Martin shooting: Zimmerman says Trayvon decked him, then began hammering him

[iceberg]

He may have been justified in being suspicious. But he's not justified in killing him.

Anyway, I'm glad you've come over to my side. It's clear race played a part.

2 separate issues. if he's justified in being suspicious, then that's one thing.

what happened between then and the killing - when did "race" come into play?

 

[Midswat]

He may have been justified in being suspicious. But he's not justified in killing him.

Anyway, I'm glad you've come over to my side. It's clear race played a part.

Suspicion led to him following him and calling 911.

Defending himself led to the killing.


Race played a part in the suspicion. Not the murder.

If I've ever suggested race wasn't an issue, it was in that race wasn't a motivating factor in the decision to kill Martin.

 

[iceberg]

How do you think Zim identified Trayvon as one of "these assholes?"

from what i've read on several counts, trayvon was looking in the windows of houses and acting suspicious. was trayvon casing the house? we'll never know for sure.

has he ever stolen anything before?

not allowed to ask.

 

[peplaw06]

2 separate issues. if he's justified in being suspicious, then that's one thing.

what happened between then and the killing - when did "race" come into play?

Race came into play from the beginning. Zimmerman was suspicious because of Trayvon's race. That led to the rest of it.

If he hadn't been suspicious, he wouldn't have called 911. He wouldn't have followed Trayvon against the dispatcher's instructions. He wouldn't have shot Trayvon.

 

[iceberg]

Race came into play from the beginning. Zimmerman was suspicious because of Trayvon's race. That led to the rest of it.

If he hadn't been suspicious, he wouldn't have called 911. He wouldn't have followed Trayvon against the dispatcher's instructions. He wouldn't have shot Trayvon.

lots of speculation you're doing that i don't see you letting "the other side" get away with.

 

[peplaw06]

Suspicion led to him following him and calling 911.

Defending himself led to the killing.

I don't see it that way. I see that Trayvon defending himself led to him being killed.

Race played a part in the suspicion. Not the murder.

If I've ever suggested race wasn't an issue, it was in that race wasn't a motivating factor in the decision to kill Martin.

The suspicion led to the murder, so I'm not separating the two. I'm not saying Zimmerman intended to kill Trayvon from the beginning, but the suspicion led to the altercation which led to the murder.

 

[Midswat]

I don't see it that way. I see that Trayvon defending himself led to him being killed.


The suspicion led to the murder, so I'm not separating the two. I'm not saying Zimmerman intended to kill Trayvon from the beginning, but the suspicion led to the altercation which led to the murder.

Oh so your inability to seperate key incidents is leading to your flawed logic.

k.

 

[iceberg]

I don't see it that way. I see that Trayvon defending himself led to him being killed.

ok, zimmerman lost trayvon and went back to his SUV. trayvon came back at zimmerman and started asking what was going on.

how come that's ok but the idea of "just go home" is so bad? the idea of just saying "i'm here visiting my dad" is out of the question. it's all on zimmerman cause he dared to see someone acting suspicious in a neighborhood of high crime.

 

[peplaw06]

lots of speculation you're doing that i don't see you letting "the other side" get away with.

If by not letting you get away with it, you mean distrusting that George's version of the events is the truth, then ok.

 

[peplaw06]

Oh so your inability to seperate key incidents is leading to your flawed logic.

k.

how is it flawed logic? Enlighten me.

 

[iceberg]

If by not letting you get away with it, you mean distrusting that George's version of the events is the truth, then ok.

distrust away. but you have no proof of all the racial things you're now using against him anymore than anyone else has proof that it wasn't racially motivated.

all i'm sayin.

 

[peplaw06]

ok, zimmerman lost trayvon and went back to his SUV. trayvon came back at zimmerman and started asking what was going on.

My understanding is that Trayvon asked Zimmerman why he was following him. Is that a crime?

Then my understanding is that Zimmerman reached for something on his person. If that had happened to me, I would have felt threatened, and I would have sought to protect myself.

I am inherently distrustful of Zimmerman's story, because he was overzealous that night and killed Trayvon and now he's trying to avoid the consequences. It smells cooked up to me.

Of course, I've stated this as nauseum throughout this thread.

how come that's ok but the idea of "just go home" is so bad? the idea of just saying "i'm here visiting my dad" is out of the question. it's all on zimmerman cause he dared to see someone acting suspicious in a neighborhood of high crime.

I've never said Trayvon acted completely appropriately or that he was without blame. I'm only saying he didn't deserve to be killed, and I think Zimmerman is directly culpable.

 

[peplaw06]

distrust away. but you have no proof of all the racial things you're now using against him anymore than anyone else has proof that it wasn't racially motivated.

all i'm sayin.

What "proof" are you looking for? Someone who was inside George's head who knew what he was thinking? A statement that this black kid is gonna get it? Guess what... you're not going to get that kind of direct proof. the circumstantial evidence is enough proof to me.

What direct or circumstantial proof do you have that race had nothing to do with it?

 

[iceberg]

My understanding is that Trayvon asked Zimmerman why he was following him. Is that a crime?

Then my understanding is that Zimmerman reached for something on his person. If that had happened to me, I would have felt threatened, and I would have sought to protect myself.

I am inherently distrustful of Zimmerman's story, because he was overzealous that night and killed Trayvon and now he's trying to avoid the consequences. It smells cooked up to me.

Of course, I've stated this as nauseum throughout this thread.

I've never said Trayvon acted completely appropriately or that he was without blame. I'm only saying he didn't deserve to be killed, and I think Zimmerman is directly culpable.

from wiki of the recording:
About two minutes into the call, Zimmerman said, "he's running."[98] The dispatcher asked, "He's running? Which way is he running?"[99] The sound of a car door chime is heard, indicating Zimmerman opened his car door.[100] Zimmerman followed Martin, eventually losing sight of him.[98] The dispatcher asked Zimmerman if he was following him. When Zimmerman answered, "yeah," the dispatcher said, "We don't need you to do that." Zimmerman responded, "Okay."[101] Zimmerman asked that police call him upon their arrival so he could provide his location.[98] Zimmerman ended the call at 7:15 p.m.[98]
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so when they said "stop" he did. there was no hedge jumping chase that people seem to think there was. at least not proven by the recorded 911 call.

more:
The friend said that she told Martin to run to the townhouse where he was staying with his father and the father's girlfriend.[167] She then heard Martin say, "What are you following me for?" followed by a man's voice responding, "What are you doing around here?" She said that she heard the sound of pushing before the phone went dead. She immediately attempted to call him back, but was unable to reach him

so i've NEVER to date heard zimmerman went for his gun at this point or even reached into his pocket. the ONLY recorded evidence we have is zimmerman asking what he's doing around here and then pushing.

from there the only fragments of witnesses put zimmerman underneath trayvon and zimmermans testimony. if you don't want to believe him fine, but i'll keep trying to put pieces together as they fit on their own, not as i want them to.

 

[Midswat]

how is it flawed logic? Enlighten me.

You said it yourself... the "suspicion lead to the murder" and you're refusing the seperate the two.

Thats a you problem. Thats your own flawed logic.


Zimmerman was suspicious. Rightfully so, based on the very recent history of the neighborhood.

The suspicion didn't lead to the murder. The suspicion lead to the 911 call for cops and the following of Travon.

The altercation lead to the murder. The altercation that resulted in George having a broken nose and cuts on the back of his head, the altercation in which George was screaming for help and witnesses confirm Martin was on top.

Now... if you really believe that 5'9" George, who was on the phone with 911 the entire time and gave details as to his location, decided to initiate a physical confrontation with the 6'2" Trayvon to pass the time until the cops arrived, then thats on you.


But simply put... you're refusing to seperate the suspicion from the altercation is moronic. I still respect you. I hope you know that.

 

[iceberg]

What "proof" are you looking for? Someone who was inside George's head who knew what he was thinking? A statement that this black kid is gonna get it? Guess what... you're not going to get that kind of direct proof. the circumstantial evidence is enough proof to me.

What direct or circumstantial proof do you have that race had nothing to do with it?

the exact same as you saying it does. until it's proven race was a factor, i'm not going to make zimmerman racist. pizzadough boy was calling me racist all over the place cause i didn't agree calling someone racist w/o proper evidence was right.

see how quickly that card can get played?

 

[peplaw06]

from wiki of the recording:
About two minutes into the call, Zimmerman said, "he's running."[98] The dispatcher asked, "He's running? Which way is he running?"[99] The sound of a car door chime is heard, indicating Zimmerman opened his car door.[100] Zimmerman followed Martin, eventually losing sight of him.[98] The dispatcher asked Zimmerman if he was following him. When Zimmerman answered, "yeah," the dispatcher said, "We don't need you to do that." Zimmerman responded, "Okay."[101] Zimmerman asked that police call him upon their arrival so he could provide his location.[98] Zimmerman ended the call at 7:15 p.m.[98]
------
so when they said "stop" he did. there was no hedge jumping chase that people seem to think there was. at least not proven by the recorded 911 call.

What do you mean he did? Where in here is that indicated?

more:
The friend said that she told Martin to run to the townhouse where he was staying with his father and the father's girlfriend.[167] She then heard Martin say, "What are you following me for?" followed by a man's voice responding, "What are you doing around here?" She said that she heard the sound of pushing before the phone went dead. She immediately attempted to call him back, but was unable to reach him

Sounds to me like Zimmerman was still following him.

so i've NEVER to date heard zimmerman went for his gun at this point or even reached into his pocket. the ONLY recorded evidence we have is zimmerman asking what he's doing around here and then pushing.

from there the only fragments of witnesses put zimmerman underneath trayvon and zimmermans testimony. if you don't want to believe him fine, but i'll keep trying to put pieces together as they fit on their own, not as i want them to.

It's somewhere in this thread. I'm not going through all 1500+ posts to find it.

 

[peplaw06]

You said it yourself... the "suspicion lead to the murder" and you're refusing the seperate the two.

Thats a you problem. Thats your own flawed logic.

You haven't explained how the logic is flawed. At all.

Zimmerman was suspicious. Rightfully so, based on the very recent history of the neighborhood.

The suspicion didn't lead to the murder. The suspicion lead to the 911 call for cops and the following of Travon.

What do lead mean?

The altercation lead to the murder.

What led to the altercation? You've skipped a few steps.

The altercation that resulted in George having a broken nose and cuts on the back of his head, the altercation in which George was screaming for help and witnesses confirm Martin was on top.

Oh really? Is that the same altercation that ended up with Trayvon being dead?

Now... if you really believe that 5'9" George, who was on the phone with 911 the entire time and gave details as to his location, decided to initiate a physical confrontation with the 6'2" Trayvon to pass the time until the cops arrived, then thats on you.

And if you really believe that Trayvon who was on the phone with his girlfriend, trying to figure out what to do, and running from Zimmerman, decided to go initiate a physical confrontation with someone he probably didn't get a great look at, and who is obviously not a small man, then I guess that's on you. Still doesn't have anything to do with flawed logic.

But simply put... you're refusing to seperate the suspicion from the altercation is moronic. I still respect you. I hope you know that.

I think trying to separate the two is moronic. But I'm not going to say the logic is flawed.

 

[peplaw06]

the exact same as you saying it does. until it's proven race was a factor, i'm not going to make zimmerman racist. pizzadough boy was calling me racist all over the place cause i didn't agree calling someone racist w/o proper evidence was right.

see how quickly that card can get played?

I'm not saying he was racist. I'm saying race played a factor. And there's really nothing indicating otherwise.

 

[iceberg]

I'm not saying he was racist. I'm saying race played a factor. And there's really nothing indicating otherwise.

Zimmerman was accused of being motivated by racism[3][169] and of having racially profiled Martin.[3][128][282][307] During early media coverage of the incident, Zimmerman's call to the police dispatcher was edited by NBC, shortened such that it appeared that Zimmerman had volunteered Martin's race. The unedited audio recording proved that the police dispatcher specifically asked about Martin's race, and only then did Zimmerman reveal that Martin was black. NBC apologized for the misleading edit and disciplined those involved.[308]

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he only brought up race when asked. the media "audio editing" fanned the flames long before they came back with a back page "oops".