Hoofbite

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wouldn't trayvon peering into houses also help create the situation? yes, it's only zimmermans testimony and no, we can't look at trayvons history, but outside that both sides can only speculate.

I don't buy the idea that Trayvon was peering into houses and I think anyone who does is interjecting Trayvon's history into that idea.

I'm willing to take Trayvon's history into account and say that I still don't think he was looking into houses simply because it doesn't make a bit of sense to me. What the fuck would he do if he were casing the place? Break in and take all the stolen shit back to his Dad's house and say that he found it on the road? He wasn't there to be a cat burglar, he was visiting family. He's such a criminal that he's out there looking to see what is in each house but only after paying for his $2 items at the convenience. I just don't think that was the case.

George didn't mention looking into houses on the phone call. He says he's looking around and looking at houses but this is during the same phone call where he's already said the guy was on drugs, he's up to no good and whatever else. Had Trayvon actually been looking into windows, bet your ass George calls that out.

I've already said, and posted why, I think George's version is questionable so I'm not willing to accept his account of what happened when he didn't even mention it during the phone call or the reenactment, IIRC.
 
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So, he should keep the gun in his hand and tell him "BAD KITTEH!" and hope he gets off him?

If you want to continue to post things I didn't post, I guess you can post whatever you want. No matter how inane it might be.
 

Hoofbite

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It's hard to say who went after who first. So, I can't answer your question.

I've said that GZ shouldn't have followed him, but if TM went after him instead of running the other way and started beating his head on the pavement, I can see justification for shooting him.

Now, if GZ started the actual confrontation he should be found guilty.

But you said George created the situation. You're reducing to a "who's at fault first" stance for the physical confrontation and attributing fault to George for there ever being a physical confrontation in the first place by following him.

Just kind of odd. George created the situation but Trayvon could have superseded that by initiating the physical aspect.

Ultimately we don't know who initiated but we do know that George followed Trayvon.
 

Iamtdg

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But you said George created the situation. You're reducing to a "who's at fault first" stance for the physical confrontation and attributing fault to George for there ever being a physical confrontation in the first place by following him.

Just kind of odd. George created the situation but Trayvon could have superseded that by initiating the physical aspect.

Ultimately we don't know who initiated but we do know that George followed Trayvon.

The whole "who created the situation" can also be argued the other way. Like has been reported, if TM had been peeking in windows, it could be argued he created it by raising suspicion with the neighborhood watch. Most of this is just speculation since no one else was there.
 

Hoofbite

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The whole "who created the situation" can also be argued the other way. Like has been reported, if TM had been peeking in windows, it could be argued he created it by raising suspicion with the neighborhood watch. Most of this is just speculation since no one else was there.

This is Zimmerman's version. Well, a revised version because he never mentioned it in the phone call or his written statement IIRC.

You have yourself saying Zimmerman created it but it seems like you want to attribute some sort of fault to Trayvon.

"Well, Zimmerman is responsible because of this known fact but if this supposed event actually did occur then Trayvon would be just as responsible......therefore I think Trayvon is responsible".
 

Iamtdg

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I'm saying fault could be on both sides. But nobody knows the true reality of the situation. Zimmerman shouldn't have followed him, but if Trayvon didn't run and jumped on Zimmerman then the fault could lie on him.
 

JBond

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I don't buy the idea that Trayvon was peering into houses and I think anyone who does is interjecting Trayvon's history into that idea.

I'm willing to take Trayvon's history into account and say that I still don't think he was looking into houses simply because it doesn't make a bit of sense to me. What the fuck would he do if he were casing the place? Break in and take all the stolen shit back to his Dad's house and say that he found it on the road? He wasn't there to be a cat burglar, he was visiting family. He's such a criminal that he's out there looking to see what is in each house but only after paying for his $2 items at the convenience. I just don't think that was the case.

George didn't mention looking into houses on the phone call. He says he's looking around and looking at houses but this is during the same phone call where he's already said the guy was on drugs, he's up to no good and whatever else. Had Trayvon actually been looking into windows, bet your ass George calls that out.

I've already said, and posted why, I think George's version is questionable so I'm not willing to accept his account of what happened when he didn't even mention it during the phone call or the reenactment, IIRC.

A good post, but for the record he was not just visiting family. His mom kicked him out after he was suspended from school. Why he was suspended was treated a top secret security measure.

I am curious about the thought process of TM backers. I fully agree this entire incident could have been avoided. Should GZ be convicted on a charge added at the end of the trial? Would the defense have gone a different way if they had known the Democrat judge was going to behave in that manner? Different thresholds are required for different charges. The tirade jabba the judge went on against the defendant is sure to prejudice the jury.
 
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wouldn't trayvon peering into houses also help create the situation?
What "situation" are you referring to? Trayvon "peering into houses" is no more creating a deadly situation than walking down the street at night.
 
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The whole "who created the situation" can also be argued the other way. Like has been reported, if TM had been peeking in windows, it could be argued he created it by raising suspicion with the neighborhood watch. Most of this is just speculation since no one else was there.
Peeking in windows is not creating a deadly situation, even if I assumed that happened. Like Hoof, I don't believe that happened.
 

JBond

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Peeking in windows is not creating a deadly situation, even if I assumed that happened. Like Hoof, I don't believe that happened.

I would not drag hoof in. He is one of the few that can converse without being an ass. What transpired during the trial that led you to your conclusions? Please be specific.
 

JBond

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I don't buy the idea that Trayvon was peering into houses and I think anyone who does is interjecting Trayvon's history into that idea.

I'm willing to take Trayvon's history into account and say that I still don't think he was looking into houses simply because it doesn't make a bit of sense to me. What the fuck would he do if he were casing the place? Break in and take all the stolen shit back to his Dad's house and say that he found it on the road? He wasn't there to be a cat burglar, he was visiting family. He's such a criminal that he's out there looking to see what is in each house but only after paying for his $2 items at the convenience. I just don't think that was the case.

George didn't mention looking into houses on the phone call. He says he's looking around and looking at houses but this is during the same phone call where he's already said the guy was on drugs, he's up to no good and whatever else. Had Trayvon actually been looking into windows, bet your ass George calls that out.

I've already said, and posted why, I think George's version is questionable so I'm not willing to accept his account of what happened when he didn't even mention it during the phone call or the reenactment, IIRC.

A good post, but for the record he was not just visiting family. His mom kicked him out after he was suspended from school.

I am curious about the thought process of TM backers. I fully agree this entire incident could have been avoided. Should GZ be convicted on a charge added at the end of trial? Would the defense have gone a different way if they had known the Democrat judge was going to behave in that manner? Different thresholds are required for different charges. The tirade jabba the judge went on against the defendant is sure to prejudice the jury.
 

Hoofbite

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A good post, but for the record he was not just visiting family. His mom kicked him out after he was suspended from school. Why he was suspended was treated a top secret security measure.

I am curious about the thought process of TM backers. I fully agree this entire incident could have been avoided. Should GZ be convicted on a charge added at the end of the trial? Would the defense have gone a different way if they had known the Democrat judge was going to behave in that manner? Different thresholds are required for different charges. The tirade jabba the judge went on against the defendant is sure to prejudice the jury.

Peplaw called the manslaughter charge a long ass time ago. If he can see it coming from another state, hopefully the lawyer who's getting paid saw it coming as well.

Regardless of why Trayvon was there, Zimmerman never mentioned it during the phone call or during the reenactment. He does say that he was looking into the houses in the written statement but "casually looking at the house" as he describes it in the reenactment is worlds apart from actually looking into a house. This aside from the other inconsistencies which call into question his entire story.

In the reenactment he says that he was "casually looking at the house" and just standing in the rain. This is what made him suspicious, a person standing in the rain. Another thing I noticed in the reenactment is that he says that he had never seen him before but during the phone call, "he looks black". How the fuck can you say you've never seen someone before if you can't even determine their skin tone at first glance?

I think a lot of people want Trayvon to be looking into the house rather than simply accepting what actually occurred as it occurred, and as it is recorded during the phone call.
 

JBond

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Peplaw called the manslaughter charge a long ass time ago. If he can see it coming from another state, hopefully the lawyer who's getting paid saw it coming as well.

Regardless of why Trayvon was there, Zimmerman never mentioned it during the phone call or during the reenactment. He does say that he was looking into the houses in the written statement but "casually looking at the house" as he describes it in the reenactment is worlds apart from actually looking into a house. This aside from the other inconsistencies which call into question his entire story.

In the reenactment he says that he was "casually looking at the house" and just standing in the rain. This is what made him suspicious, a person standing in the rain. Another thing I noticed in the reenactment is that he says that he had never seen him before but during the phone call, "he looks black". How the fuck can you say you've never seen someone before if you can't even determine their skin tone at first glance?

I think a lot of people want Trayvon to be looking into the house rather than simply accepting what actually occurred as it occurred, and as it is recorded during the phone call.

Maybe. I still have several concerns. Those that believe they have a complete understanding of that tragic night are full of crap and are pushing an agenda.
 

iceberg

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Peeking in windows is not creating a deadly situation, even if I assumed that happened. Like Hoof, I don't believe that happened.

no one said peeking in windows creates a deadly situation. but does it warrant questioning? esp in a neighborhood w/high crime?
 

iceberg

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I don't buy the idea that Trayvon was peering into houses and I think anyone who does is interjecting Trayvon's history into that idea.

I'm willing to take Trayvon's history into account and say that I still don't think he was looking into houses simply because it doesn't make a bit of sense to me. What the fuck would he do if he were casing the place? Break in and take all the stolen shit back to his Dad's house and say that he found it on the road? He wasn't there to be a cat burglar, he was visiting family. He's such a criminal that he's out there looking to see what is in each house but only after paying for his $2 items at the convenience. I just don't think that was the case.

George didn't mention looking into houses on the phone call. He says he's looking around and looking at houses but this is during the same phone call where he's already said the guy was on drugs, he's up to no good and whatever else. Had Trayvon actually been looking into windows, bet your ass George calls that out.

I've already said, and posted why, I think George's version is questionable so I'm not willing to accept his account of what happened when he didn't even mention it during the phone call or the reenactment, IIRC.

you're right. that was not on the original call. acting strange like he was on drugs, well that was said.

and proven. he did have THC in his system.

do i down him for this? no. i'm job hunting and jealous i can't smoke right now. but people smoke for their own reasons and you can't know those reasons w/o knowing the person.

zimmerman is an open book. martin, off limits.

i get pep's argument as to why and the hows of the legal system but that doesn't make it right. to put together a best case scenario from subjective evidence, you need it all. just because lawyers of the past have found ways to make precedence something to judge by as things go on - should it?

in this case we're stuck with it.

the way i see things is:

zimmerman was overzealous in his pursuit.
why? cause he's the head of neighborhood watch and a lot of crime has gone by unpunished, or even given a shit about.

trayvon was just a kid going home, likely stoned. tea and skittles? just as good as anything, i suppose. was he looking in houses and windows? dunno. to say yes or no is just a bullshit stance no one can prove.

zimmerman didn't know him so he did call it in. he did do a bit more than just call it in. not a very good response on his part.

trayvon, when he saw he was being followed, confronted his follower.

at this point, i don't care what he did but i ask you - what is a "reasonable response" to being followed? did he in fact come back to ask zimmerman what was up?

if so, being scared is out the window.

what are martins choices at this point:

1. say he's staying with family down the street
2. go home cause he lost zimmerman
3. ask what's up?

he seemed to do #3. now - what is a "reasonable response" to that?

1. i'm staying at home w/family
2. get mad and start a fight

i'm not saying zimmerman made the best choices that night.

i *am* saying martin made some bad calls himself people are quick to forgive.
 
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Will George Zimmerman Get Away With Murder?

Trayvon Martin was murdered. George Zimmerman murdered him. The jury may or may not see it that way; juries get a narrow and complicated view of things, and sometimes they get things wrong. But outside the jury box, there's no excuse.

If you want to get into a technical argument that it's only murder if it's "unlawful," and that if this trial by jury fails to produce a conviction, then the killing is not unlawful and therefore is not murder—well, presumably you also would argue that O.J. Simpson did not murder his wife. But why are you trying to make the argument at all? Why do you want to believe that an armed man shooting and killing an unarmed 17-year-old boy is lawful? What makes you think this way?

Some people think this way because they are pure, conscious racists. They hate and fear black people, and they know that they hate and fear black people, and so they are glad that a 17-year-old black person was killed in this situation. They may reject the actual term "racism," but they are remarkably open about the fact that they believe that black people are inherently dangerous and criminal, and that a black teenager is going to be a dangerous predator, and that at worst George Zimmerman merely activated Trayvon Martin's latent predatory nature.
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This, Courtesy of MSNBC, Is Trayvon Martin's Dead Body. Get Angry.

A reader of mine sent me this photo last night. As the murder trial of George Zimmerman wheezes to its conclusion, the TV networks dutifully pipe in… Read…

There are quite a lot of these racists, the simple kind. One particularly frothing one has sent us at least three different emails with a photo of what he claims is the real Trayvon Martin. It's a photograph of the rapper Game, who is almost twice Martin's age, with a beard and facial tattoos. We have pointed this out, and the emails keep coming. The message is that the liberal media have lied to the public, showing photos of a baby-faced Martin when he was secretly a brawny, scowling thug. Now it's a matter of record what Martin really did look like on the night he died. (But someone who did look like Game would also not have forfeited his own right not to be shot dead.)
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Bloomberg on Stop-and-Frisk: 'I Think We Stop Minorities Too Little'

Echoing New York City Police Commissioner Ray Kelly's recent statement on the subject, Mayor Michael Bloomberg said in a radio interview today… Read…

These people are horrible and repugnant and backwards. If you subtract the part about armed vigilantism, though, their philosophy that all young black men should be dealt with as criminals is the operating policy of the mayor and police commissioner of New York City. And that same racism infects the more respectable—and more disturbing—argument about why George Zimmerman ought to go free: that, sadly, we just can't really know what happened that night. The case is too murky and confusing. Upsetting though Trayvon Martin's death may have been, there's not enough evidence to overcome the presumption of innocence. Under our system of justice, we have to accept it as a terrible mistake.

Behind these preemptive apologetics is the idea that this case is somehow unusually tricky, that it falls in some blind spot of criminal law. It's not, and it doesn't. One person, armed with a gun, got in a fight with another person and shot that person dead. This is not a difficult scenario. It's second-degree murder.

What is reasonably in doubt? Other criminal defendants argue that the police have the wrong guy, that they weren't at the scene of the crime, that they didn't have a weapon, that they didn't do the killing. George Zimmerman was there. He brought a gun, which belonged to him. George Zimmerman used George Zimmerman's gun to shoot Trayvon Martin dead. There is not a shred of dispute about these facts.

So we get a self-defense case, because self-defense is what a killer claims when no other claim can possibly work. George Zimmerman shot an unarmed teenager, who had been minding his own business, because he had no other choice. According to whom? To George Zimmerman. Stripped to the basics, here's Zimmerman's defense: Nuh-uh.

Specifically, according to Zimmerman, here is what happened: Trayvon Martin attacked him, without provocation. Martin overpowered him. Martin began beating him, with the intent to kill him, and was on his way to succeeding.

No one but Zimmerman says Martin was the aggressor. No one but Zimmerman says Zimmerman was hopelessly losing the fight. No one but Zimmerman says that, of the two of them—the adult with a lethal weapon and the minor with a package of candy—Martin was the one who was too dangerous to live.

The only person who could directly dispute this story, point by point, was left dead on the grass that night. Zimmerman puts movie-villain dialogue in Martin's mouth. Zimmerman describes the one-sided savagery of the beating. Trayvon Martin isn't around to supply his own point of view.

Why should we believe Zimmerman about any of this? Or—more to the point—all of it, because without every part of his story, his defense collapses. He pursued Martin. He shot Martin. According to him, in between those events, the teenage boy turned into a werewolf, an unstoppable savage would-be killer, and the armed neighborhood watchman became his helpless victim. If it didn't happen exactly that way, Zimmerman has no defense.

High-profile cases have a way of passing backwards through a telescope, squeezing down to their tiniest point. Rodney King was beaten to a pulp by a gang of cops, and the Rodney King brutality trial turned into a question of whether this or that particular sequence of video frames showed him being unambiguously beaten to a pulp. O.J. Simpson slashed two people to death, and the trial pivoted on whether he could smoothly slide a blood-stiffened glove on over a latex glove.

What's the evidence here? Zimmerman had a bloody nose and cuts and scrapes on the back of his head. Nothing remotely close to a life-threatening injury. There was none of his DNA on the hands of the teenager who was supposedly beating him to death. Zimmerman's own account of events kept changing; the physical evidence—the position of Martin's hands, for instance—directly contradicts some of it.

But yes, Trayvon Martin fought with him. Imagine that—imagine this shaved-headed yutz, this mook, this MMA hobbyist with a flashlight and a gun, coming after you in the dark. Why would or couldn't Trayvon Martin fight for his own life?

This is what the real dispute is: do you believe that a 17-year-old black person counts the same as any other human being? The local cops did not, which is why the case turned into a national scandal to begin with. George Zimmerman did not. Trayvon Martin was walking along, heading home from the store, and that was not enough.

Turn the case around: a black teenager goes out carrying a gun, gets in a fight with a Neighborhood Watch volunteer, and shoots him, claiming self-defense. We would not even be discussing the case. The cops would have arrested and charged him. He would already be in prison. Picture anyone else lying dead on the grass—a middle-aged jogger, an elementary-school teacher, yourself. Yes, you. Now you're dead, for no reason at all, and the experts are wringing their hands about how the law can't do a thing about it. If that's how it is, there is no law.
 
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The article above reads like Zimmerman came up behind Martin and put a round in the back of his head, not that he was on the losing end of a fight where he was in fear for his life.
 
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