VTA

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You didn't really answer my question. In fact, this whole paragraph seems to contradict what you said earlier and even seems to contradict itself.

You went from this:



to "You're not doing well".

Which is it? You aren't "doing well" or you'll be held accountable. Is it sin or not? What does the Bible say?


Really not interested. I grew up in a Catholic church. I really don't disagree with many of your thoughts on them. I'm struggling to see how they differ from any other organized religion though.


What makes something a "pop culture" religion?


Nope, what does it say? People will fight over plastic shit and spots in line?

Of course I answered it. You see someone being misled, you're supposed to let them know and it's not un-Christian or hypocritical as you'd said. That's the topic you've brought out of this. What's the difference between not 'doing well' in the context of what we're talking about and sinning? Don't think semantics creates a contradiction.

Since when are you struggling with the distinction? We're talking about Catholicism and it's unbiblical practices and the very biblical stance of a Christian pointing out false teachings. Maybe you should take the time to clarify your thoughts and write them out, eh?

When it attempts to appeal to popular culture no matter how God-less that culture is.

No, it say's someone will come along trotting the idea of a unified world government and economy, (which will eventually be formed), like Pope Francis and his predecessors have promoted all in the name of equality and pretending it's shameful to be rich. All while being one of the richest economies in the world in and of itself.
 

junk

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Of course I answered it. You see someone being misled, you're supposed to let them know and it's not un-Christian or hypocritical as you'd said. That's the topic you've brought out of this. What's the difference between not 'doing well' in the context of what we're talking about and sinning? Don't think semantics creates a contradiction.
Being misled is not what I was talking about when speaking of being un-Christian or hypocritical.

So, let's throw semantics out the window and I'll ask again. Is it a sin if you tolerate Catholicism and allow others to be "wrongly led"?

You said this:

It's very Christian. Christ directs Christians to identify false teachers, as does Paul, Peter and John.
Christianity isn't all preaching, we're supposed to point out error. You're called to it or held accountable for tolerating it and allowing others to be wrongly led.
How do you deal with the contradiction with your mother-in-law? You've said she is a better Christian than you, but you're sinning if you tolerate her Catholicism and allow others her to be wrongly led, correct?

Since when are you struggling with the distinction? We're talking about Catholicism and it's unbiblical practices and the very biblical stance of a Christian pointing out false teachings. Maybe you should take the time to clarify your thoughts and write them out, eh?
Seems pretty clear to me. Just trying to understand the contradiction in everything you've been saying in this thread. Once again, you state Catholicism is unbiblical. However, your mother-in-law, who is Catholic, is a better Christian than you? That seems like you are tolerating it......but that is a sin, correct? That seems......hypocritical.

When it attempts to appeal to popular culture no matter how God-less that culture is.
I suspect religion morphing to more closely align itself with current culture isn't a new thing nor is it something that is going to go away anytime soon.

Do you follow everything the Bible says?

No, it say's someone will come along trotting the idea of a unified world government and economy, (which will eventually be formed), like Pope Francis and his predecessors have promoted all in the name of equality and pretending it's shameful to be rich. All while being one of the richest economies in the world in and of itself.
What makes you think a unified world government is an eventuality? We're spinning off on some tangents here, but this is fascinating stuff.
 

VTA

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Being misled is not what I was talking about when speaking of being un-Christian or hypocritical.

So, let's throw semantics out the window and I'll ask again. Is it a sin if you tolerate Catholicism and allow others to be "wrongly led"?

You said this:


How do you deal with the contradiction with your mother-in-law? You've said she is a better Christian than you, but you're sinning if you tolerate her Catholicism and allow others her to be wrongly led, correct?


Seems pretty clear to me. Just trying to understand the contradiction in everything you've been saying in this thread. Once again, you state Catholicism is unbiblical. However, your mother-in-law, who is Catholic, is a better Christian than you? That seems like you are tolerating it......but that is a sin, correct? That seems......hypocritical.


I suspect religion morphing to more closely align itself with current culture isn't a new thing nor is it something that is going to go away anytime soon.

Do you follow everything the Bible says?


What makes you think a unified world government is an eventuality? We're spinning off on some tangents here, but this is fascinating stuff.

I know what you were saying. The 'religion hate' as you called it was hypocritical and not Christian. It's not hate and it's very Christian to point out the error. Is it a sin? To tolerate? No. Christianity isn't compulsive and spread by the sword and we're not to force anything. To not contend for the faith and point out error? Yes. We're to speak the truth and not simply let God's word be twisted and distorted.

You seemed to have answered your own question for me. Since I stated it's not a sin, there is no contradiction. She's Catholic by the European culture she grew up with. The Mary worship and oddball rituals haven't misled her in any way, so there exist no contradictions or concern.

It depends on what you mean by follow. If I literally followed I'd be pretty sinless, but of course that's impossible. Do I believe it all? Yes.

It's really not a tangent. I posted this thing about the Pope because it does concern this exact subject.
It's an eventuality because God said it is. Through Daniel, through Zechariah, through the Revelation to John.
If he said the last days would see the rebirth/regathering of Israel to it's land, which happened; if he said it would be a burdensome stone for all nations in those days, it is; if he said morality would decay exponentially, it is; if he said there would come a single world economy/religion/political system, why wouldn't I believe this will come to pass as well?
 

jeebus

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Really? Please educate us. I am always happy to learn from a Bible guru. What else did God get wrong?
Wow, no Constantine made the fucking mistake, or whatever archivist he ordered to assemble the official bible. It is like I am speaking to Philistines. Did you think that god handed the King James (In English no less) down from the sky, or did it spring from a burning bush.

Just because you people are to ignorant of your own religion to have an opinion on its writings, don't you bring out the hammer and nails on me.
 

Jon88

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I'm just telling you right now Jesus can come back any second and he's not going to appreciate all this arguing going on.
 

VTA

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Wow, no Constantine made the fucking mistake, or whatever archivist he ordered to assemble the official bible. It is like I am speaking to Philistines. Did you think that god handed the King James (In English no less) down from the sky, or did it spring from a burning bush.

Just because you people are to ignorant of your own religion to have an opinion on its writings, don't you bring out the hammer and nails on me.

Constantine didn't set the Canon, it was set after his death by the council of Laodicea and finalized by the third council Carthage around 400. Revelation was acknowledged long before Constantine and I'm not sure how you can get around it's relevance considering Jesus talks about the last days in two of the Gospels, personally acknowledging Daniels prophecy, and validating Jeremiah's and Zechariah's own prophecies concerning Israel and the last days.
 

junk

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I know what you were saying. The 'religion hate' as you called it was hypocritical and not Christian. It's not hate and it's very Christian to point out the error. Is it a sin? To tolerate? No. Christianity isn't compulsive and spread by the sword and we're not to force anything. To not contend for the faith and point out error? Yes. We're to speak the truth and not simply let God's word be twisted and distorted.
You still seem to be struggling with this concept of identifying false teachers, pointing out of error and allowing others to be wrongly led. Obviously, you feel that Catholics are being wrongly led and you'll be held accountable for allowing others to be wrongly led....but you allow your mother-in-law to follow this path. You've said you'll be held accountable, but it isn't a sin? How do you decide which Catholics need to be pointed in the error of their ways and which ones aren't being misled?

What about other religions or Christian sects?

It depends on what you mean by follow. If I literally followed I'd be pretty sinless, but of course that's impossible. Do I believe it all? Yes.
You avoid pork and shellfish? Believe stoning is acceptable for a wide variety of misdeeds? Not allowing women to speak in church?

It's really not a tangent. I posted this thing about the Pope because it does concern this exact subject.
It's an eventuality because God said it is. Through Daniel, through Zechariah, through the Revelation to John.
If he said the last days would see the rebirth/regathering of Israel to it's land, which happened; if he said it would be a burdensome stone for all nations in those days, it is; if he said morality would decay exponentially, it is; if he said there would come a single world economy/religion/political system, why wouldn't I believe this will come to pass as well?

Morality is decaying exponentially? What leads you to believe this? We've had much darker times in our history. I'd say, in general, our morality, ethics and civility is probably better than it has been at any time in history.

Do you really believe we're on the verge of a single world economy/religion/political system? Who has enough power and influence to attempt that?
 

junk

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Any sort of progress made in resolving this dispute?

Naw, it is related to religion. Nothing will be resolved. I'm not even sure if there is an argument in here anywhere to be honest.
 

VTA

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You still seem to be struggling with this concept of identifying false teachers, pointing out of error and allowing others to be wrongly led. Obviously, you feel that Catholics are being wrongly led and you'll be held accountable for allowing others to be wrongly led....but you allow your mother-in-law to follow this path. You've said you'll be held accountable, but it isn't a sin? How do you decide which Catholics need to be pointed in the error of their ways and which ones aren't being misled?

What about other religions or Christian sects?

I don't think I'm the one struggling here. You introduce all sorts of non-sequiturs to avoid admitting your initial premise is wrong. There's nothing hypocritical or un-Christian about pointing out false teachings. It's simply a part of the Christian walk.

I don't decide anything, I take it as it comes while living a normal life. In the course of relationships the opportunity to talk about things arise and you take it. I'm not sure how posting this relevant piece concerning the Pope, his idea and the prophecy concerning it could be construed as anything but Christian awareness.

The other religions subject is a long discussion in and of itself and an entirely difference topic. The short answer is, if they do not accept Christ at his word, that the way to God is through Him, that He died for all mans sin and that He is in fact God himself then they're doing it wrong. God sets the rules, not man. The existence of counterfeit's do not invalidate the genuine. In fact, there's no such thing as a counterfeit if no genuine article exists. All religion is a farce and there is no God.

You avoid pork and shellfish? Believe stoning is acceptable for a wide variety of misdeeds? Not allowing women to speak in church?

Point me to any scripture where a Christian (and not an ancient Jew) was ever admonished to live by Levitical codes of diet restrictions and capital punishment for sins.

Morality is decaying exponentially? What leads you to believe this? We've had much darker times in our history. I'd say, in general, our morality, ethics and civility is probably better than it has been at any time in history.

You'd think that way if God were absent from your life. But God doesn't change and what he calls immoral remains immoral. What's acceptable now and what society is numb to is a far cry darker than in times past. Civilizations exist on arc's not planes and ours is sliding downward gradually enough for people to see the natural affection people should have for each eroding and not be troubled by it. Child abuse, people abuse, callousness toward crime to the point where it can joked about. For example, how many faces of meth meme's and articles have been laughed at? Sure it's self inflicted, but it's still people so confused that they're doing that to themselves and that's somehow laughable? There are numerous examples of a society gone numb, too many to really enumerate.

Do you really believe we're on the verge of a single world economy/religion/political system? Who has enough power and influence to attempt that?

If we're on the verge, that's not for me to say, I'm not Harold Camping. I can see the first signs of pangs, but how long it goes I have no idea. God's timing of 'days' is different than ours. Martin Luther called the Pope in his day the anti-Christ, so the nearness of these things in our time is out of my understanding.

The power for such a concept will be preceded by natural disasters and the after effects of wars, greatly diminishing populations and leaving people with the need for security in any form. Jesus likened it all to birth pangs; breaches and trouble in waves, conditioning people for accepting these things eventually. An influential voice like the Pope's supporting such things as a singular currency and worse, his ecumenical idea's are moving toward conditioning people to these things.
 

junk

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I don't think I'm the one struggling here. You introduce all sorts of non-sequiturs to avoid admitting your initial premise is wrong. There's nothing hypocritical or un-Christian about pointing out false teachings. It's simply a part of the Christian walk.
What initial premise? There are a whole slew of things I find hypocritical about this thread, but we can't get past your initial confusion as to whether you should or shouldn't tolerate the beliefs of others. It seems to vary depending upon the circumstances you encounter.

I don't decide anything, I take it as it comes while living a normal life. In the course of relationships the opportunity to talk about things arise and you take it. I'm not sure how posting this relevant piece concerning the Pope, his idea and the prophecy concerning it could be construed as anything but Christian awareness.
Frankly, I could care less about the initial article. I don't think any of my comments or questions have related to that.

The other religions subject is a long discussion in and of itself and an entirely difference topic. The short answer is, if they do not accept Christ at his word, that the way to God is through Him, that He died for all mans sin and that He is in fact God himself then they're doing it wrong. God sets the rules, not man. The existence of counterfeit's do not invalidate the genuine. In fact, there's no such thing as a counterfeit if no genuine article exists. All religion is a farce and there is no God.
Catholics don't do this?

Point me to any scripture where a Christian (and not an ancient Jew) was ever admonished to live by Levitical codes of diet restrictions and capital punishment for sins.
So those things aren't in the Bible?

You'd think that way if God were absent from your life. But God doesn't change and what he calls immoral remains immoral. What's acceptable now and what society is numb to is a far cry darker than in times past. Civilizations exist on arc's not planes and ours is sliding downward gradually enough for people to see the natural affection people should have for each eroding and not be troubled by it. Child abuse, people abuse, callousness toward crime to the point where it can joked about. For example, how many faces of meth meme's and articles have been laughed at? Sure it's self inflicted, but it's still people so confused that they're doing that to themselves and that's somehow laughable? There are numerous examples of a society gone numb, too many to really enumerate.
LOL

Please. 150 years ago we were enslaving people in this country. 70 years ago millions of people were killed simply because of their religion. 50 years ago we could deny people use of public facilities based on their race.

Everyone wants to pretend things are getting worse, but we're getting better. We're much more civilized and moral as a whole than we have been in the past.

Faces of meth? C'mon.
 

VTA

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What initial premise? There are a whole slew of things I find hypocritical about this thread, but we can't get past your initial confusion as to whether you should or shouldn't tolerate the beliefs of others. It seems to vary depending upon the circumstances you encounter.

Frankly, I could care less about the initial article. I don't think any of my comments or questions have related to that.

Maybe you forgot how you entered the thread? :confused

More the religion on religion hate. Calling the pope the Anti-Christ. Calling Catholics a cult.

Lots of hypocrisy. Doesn't seem very Christian.

I clearly answered the tolerance thing a few posts ago. You seem to have trouble grasping clearly written claims and I'm obviously not the only who's noticed. :thumbsup

Catholics don't do this?

You asked about other religions, not specifically Catholicism.

So those things aren't in the Bible?

I guess you can't point me to the scripture that teaches this as way for Christians to behave? Sure they're in the bible, so are the reasons why we, as well as modern Jews, are not to do them. They were for a time and place in man's history.

LOL

Please. 150 years ago we were enslaving people in this country. 70 years ago millions of people were killed simply because of their religion. 50 years ago we could deny people use of public facilities based on their race.

Everyone wants to pretend things are getting worse, but we're getting better. We're much more civilized and moral as a whole than we have been in the past.

Faces of meth? C'mon.

Yep. We grew, made strides, then peaked and now are going the other way. I'm sure it's all subjective based on how you perceive morals but I'm not here to convince you.

A simple example of finding humor in someone else's misery. I'm sure you can object to any example in your search to avoid the idea being put forth.
 

junk

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I clearly answered the tolerance thing a few posts ago. You seem to have trouble grasping clearly written claims and I'm obviously not the only who's noticed. :thumbsup
Eh, you haven't clearly answered anything.

VTA said:
You're called to it or held accountable for tolerating it and allowing others to be wrongly led.

VTA said:
Like in any aspect of life, you're basically not doing well if you see someone wrongly led and keep your trap shut. It's more hateful to watch and stay silent than it is to open your mouth and at least give them your viewpoint to consider.

junk said:
to "You're not doing well".

Which is it? You aren't "doing well" or you'll be held accountable. Is it sin or not? What does the Bible say?

VTA said:
What's the difference between not 'doing well' in the context of what we're talking about and sinning? Don't think semantics creates a contradiction.

VTA said:
It's not hate and it's very Christian to point out the error. Is it a sin? To tolerate? No.

Since I stated it's not a sin, there is no contradiction.

All over the map. The guy that agrees with you has trouble spelling and said you were ignorant of your own religion. Just saying.

VTA said:
I guess you can't point me to the scripture that teaches this as way for Christians to behave? Sure they're in the bible, so are the reasons why we, as well as modern Jews, are not to do them. They were for a time and place in man's history.

So you only believe certain parts of the Bible of your choosing? How do you decide? What makes your picking and choosing of the Bible more correct than some other Christian sect that does the same thing? That seems a little like pop culture religion, doesn't it?

VTA said:
It depends on what you mean by follow. If I literally followed I'd be pretty sinless, but of course that's impossible. Do I believe it all? Yes.

Wait, what? You believe it all? Well, yeah, except for a few parts. :thumbsup

Yep. We grew, made strides, then peaked and now are going the other way. I'm sure it's all subjective based on how you perceive morals but I'm not here to convince you.

A simple example of finding humor in someone else's misery. I'm sure you can object to any example in your search to avoid the idea being put forth.

Give me some concrete examples. If there are so many, why did you use something as inane as faces of meth internet memes?

When did we peak? When did we start this moral backslide?
 
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Give me some concrete examples. If there are so many, why did you use something as inane as faces of meth internet memes?

When did we peak? When did we start this moral backslide?
Not to insert myself into you and VTA's debate here...

But certain acts a society deems as moral at the time the acts are done, often look like a very inhumane act as the morality of the society changes. I think abortion is today's example. I personally think there are a ton of parallels between abortion and the Holocaust, slavery, the internment of Japanese Americans in WW2, etc.

Of course, most people are going to have a hard time believing that the act that is widely accepted in today's society is on the same level as those examples.
 

Jon88

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I'm glad Woody's Hoe and Brain Fart aren't around to come in and lock this thread.
 

junk

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Not to insert myself into you and VTA's debate here...

But certain acts a society deems as moral at the time the acts are done, often look like a very inhumane act as the morality of the society changes. I think abortion is today's example. I personally think there are a ton of parallels between abortion and the Holocaust, slavery, the internment of Japanese Americans in WW2, etc.

Of course, most people are going to have a hard time believing that the act that is widely accepted in today's society is on the same level as those examples.

I hope I'm not coming across as a dick. I'm not sure I'm really debating VTA more than just trying to understand his thought process. It seems very inconsistent to me. If I don't agree with something or don't understand why people think they way they do, I like to ask questions to try to understand their point of view. Unfortunately, as I re-read what I post, I think I come across as a jerk sometimes.

Anyway, having said that, I don't think abortion is "widely accepted".
 
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