Scot

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Why would that dinosaur wonder about that when neither guns nor cars existed when they did?

Your question sir is as valid as the statement in the caption of the photo itself

Neither make sense

Why would a dinosaur wonder that?
And
Why would you take everyone's guns away when one person commits a crime with a gun when they don't try to take everyone's car away when one person commits a crime by driving drunk
 
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dbair1967

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Want to know why? It's real easy.

It's a generational thing.

First off, people nowadays are desensitized to gore, be it from video games or movies or gruesom videos on the internet. I don't remember the URL, but in the early 2000's, there was a website that hosted nothing but gruesome crime scene, crash scene, etc pics, beheading videos, etc. Wackos see this stuff and are desensitized to it.

Secondly, these mass shootings nowadays generate soooooo much attention. So every nut job, loser, nobody who wants notoriaty thinks to themselves, I'll never amount to anything IRL... let me go down in history this way. Pull the trigger a few times, and you're headline news for weeks on end. If you're someone who's never received attention, this can be very appealing.

I'd offer for example all the attention given to the drug dealer Freddie Gray or that store robber and budding criminal Michael Brown. Both were complete shitbags but were made famous by getting in confrontations with police. Received a shit ton of attention, and now its not hard at all to find videos online of black people escalating conflicts with police. Everyone wants notoriety.


And truthfully, its a societal issue. Broken homes, neglectful parents, etc. Kids need structure and organization and disclipline. But instead they eat shitty diets and watch video games and develop zero work ethic etc.


But this isn't a "gun" issue. Or an ease of getting guns. Look at Chicago. They have the strictest gun laws in the country. Hows that working out for them?
I totally agree there are other aspects to the issue of mass homicides... The problem is though that all these other advanced countries have the same problems. Mental health, video games, media coverage... all these other countries deal with or have access to the same things.

Chicago's gun ban isn't effective obviously. But really, how effective are any city's laws going to be when it comes to something like this? You don't have to check your guns when you go into the city limits. Same if you are crossing state lines.

I don't think a complete federal gun ban is the answer. But severe restrictions on the types of guns you can own and on the process to obtain a gun might be.

Some things just are so far out of the bag, that they will never change. The media? I don't see any way they stop reporting these stories or giving out the names of the shooters, even though, refusing to identify them might cut down on some of these.

Video games? I don't think those are going anywhere... but really, that's a parenting issue more than anything. It would be great if parents didn't just let their kids buy whatever video games they wanted, or watch whatever violent TV show they want.
 
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When the topic is homicide, by all means not just firearms - countries with more gun ownership have far fewer homicides. Infographic - the correlation between world wide homicide per capita and gun ownership is actually the opposite of what's generally thought. This according to the UN:

View attachment 3090
Banning guns doesn't stop murder. It's actually the opposite. Furthermore, the cities in America with by far the most gun-related deaths, are also the ones with the most restrictive gun laws.

Infographic 2 - gun violence rate historically, actually increases when stricter gun laws are enacted, and decreases when restrictions are lessened:

View attachment 3089
Won't we ever learn? How much more "research" do we need?
Are these "homicide" rates only related to gun violence? It's hard to glean anything from these stats without that being specified.
 

Hoofbite

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But this isn't a "gun" issue. Or an ease of getting guns. Look at Chicago. They have the strictest gun laws in the country. Hows that working out for them?

Guns aren't banned entirely outside of the city limits of Chicago are they? I mean, it's not an Illinois law is it? Just a city law? Or does the law also apply to the greater metropolitan area? I wouldn't think so but I don't know what they have going on over there so just want to make sure.

If it is strictly a Chicago city law, I don't really understand why Chicago is discussed so much in this context. If it's just one city out of a giant metropolis, how does the law make a statement for either side of the argument?

Chicago accounts for 234 square miles out of 10,874 square miles included in the metro area. That's a little over 2% of the greater Chicago metropolitan area where guns are banned and still leaves nearly 98% of the greater metropolitan area where guns are not banned. Even if you restricted the view to just the areas that are defined as "urban", Chicago would still only occupy about 10% of these areas.

Like I said, I don't know to what extent the law applies. Is it just within the city limits of Chicago or does Chicago somehow get to blanket cover the whole area? I wouldn't think they would, but who knows. If it is just a Chicago city thing, I don't think there's any information - one way or the other - that can be gained by looking at Chicago. If you can drive 20 minutes - or even just walk across the street to a different "city" - and purchase a gun, why would anyone expect the law to have any impact at all on gun violence?

The law is pretty much pointless if you ask me and anyone who thought it would have an effect on gun crime is basically an idiot.
 
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Guns aren't banned entirely outside of the city limits of Chicago are they? I mean, it's not an Illinois law is it? Just a city law? Or does the law also apply to the greater metropolitan area? I wouldn't think so but I don't know what they have going on over there so just want to make sure.

If it is strictly a Chicago city law, I don't really understand why Chicago is discussed so much in this context. If it's just one city out of a giant metropolis, how does the law make a statement for either side of the argument?

Chicago accounts for 234 square miles out of 10,874 square miles included in the metro area. That's a little over 2% of the greater Chicago metropolitan area where guns are banned and still leaves nearly 98% of the greater metropolitan area where guns are not banned. Even if you restricted the view to just the areas that are defined as "urban", Chicago would still only occupy about 10% of these areas.

Like I said, I don't know to what extent the law applies. Is it just within the city limits of Chicago or does Chicago somehow get to blanket cover the whole area? I wouldn't think they would, but who knows. If it is just a Chicago city thing, I don't think there's any information - one way or the other - that can be gained by looking at Chicago. If you can drive 20 minutes - or even just walk across the street to a different "city" - and purchase a gun, why would anyone expect the law to have any impact at all on gun violence?

The law is pretty much pointless if you ask me and anyone who thought it would have an effect on gun crime is basically an idiot.

Just did some quick research, and it looks like Illinois has state laws allowing firearm ownership and concealed carry for people with a firearm owner's ID.

Chicago as a city, and Cook County, have banned the possession of semi-automatic firearms, or assault weapons, and magazines with a capacity of more than 15 rounds (10 rounds in Cook County). Chicago residents have reporting requirements and requirements for trigger locks in homes where children under 18 reside. The city tried to prohibit the sale of firearms within the city limits, but a federal judge ruled that ban unconstitutional in 2014.

But as I was saying, unless there is uniformity among the laws statewide or nationwide, expecting them to be effective in any one city is naive.

Also, Chicago has constantly been a city that has had high murder rates. The fact that they continue to have high murder rates isn't particularly damning of the laws... it doesn't mean they're effective, but it also doesn't mean that they would be ineffective if implemented on a larger, more uniform, scale.
 

Hoofbite

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Infographic 2 - gun violence rate historically, actually increases when stricter gun laws are enacted, and decreases when restrictions are lessened:

View attachment 3089
Won't we ever learn? How much more "research" do we need?

At least it looks that way when the creator of the graphic highlights just 3 points in the last 130 years where gun laws were passed.

I would imagine the conclusion people would be lead to might be a little different if it included:
  • 1986 Firearm Owners Protection Act that prohibited the sale of automatic firearms manufactured after 1986
  • 1988 Undetectable Firearms Act that basically required guns to be detectable by metal detectors
  • 1990 Gun-Free School Zones Act
  • 1993 Brady Handgun Violence Prevention Act that started background checks
  • 1994 Federal Assault Weapons Ban for 10 years

I'm not saying either way that gun control laws do - or do not - work, but that "infographic" is pretty fucking lousy. Last 130 or so years and we've only had 3 gun-related laws passed or worth mentioning? From the fact that it's intellectually dishonest and lazy to the MS Paint quality graphics, it's just a shitty "infographic". The idea that there would even be reliable data from 1890 is a bit of a stretch considering the FBI Unified Crime Reporting system was started in 1930. There's really no point in including any data point before that date, and you may want to start a little bit after.

Here's an exercise. Draw a trend line from 1890 to 1985 and omit the "union-led" and "post-assassination JFK" points. Make sure you keep the "wild west" point in there because that's definitely worth mentioning. Draw another trend line from 1986 to 2012 and place the 5 laws above on that trend line. What's the conclusion now? If you've already arrived at your conclusion and you're willing to omit data points that may not go in your favor, you can make a chart say anything.

Not saying anything about whether or not the policies do or do not work, just pointing out how frail the graphic is. I mean, I'm pretty sure a number of states were on the shall-issue concealed carry train before 1990 so I have no idea why that marker is put there.
 

Scot

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Just did some quick research, and it looks like Illinois has state laws allowing firearm ownership and concealed carry for people with a firearm owner's ID.

Chicago as a city, and Cook County, have banned the possession of semi-automatic firearms, or assault weapons, and magazines with a capacity of more than 15 rounds (10 rounds in Cook County). Chicago residents have reporting requirements and requirements for trigger locks in homes where children under 18 reside. The city tried to prohibit the sale of firearms within the city limits, but a federal judge ruled that ban unconstitutional in 2014.

But as I was saying, unless there is uniformity among the laws statewide or nationwide, expecting them to be effective in any one city is naive.

Also, Chicago has constantly been a city that has had high murder rates. The fact that they continue to have high murder rates isn't particularly damning of the laws... it doesn't mean they're effective, but it also doesn't mean that they would be ineffective if implemented on a larger, more uniform, scale.

So essentially Chicago and Cook County enacted a ban similar to the California Assault weapons ban from 2000.
But ours went further with the limits. In CA you can not own an assault weapon with a detachable magazine regardless of capacity. Unless you owned your gun prior to 2000. I have a pre ban AR which allows me to own one with a detachable magazine and I carry the registration for it in the buttstock so it is ALWAYS on the gun at all times. That way if I get hassled I have my documentation at hand at all times.

But gun manufacturers found away around it with bullet buttons and other similar devices which skirt the law.

So they sell standard lowers with a bullet button which "technically" makes any magazine fixed unless you use something to depress the detent inside the button. You can not depress it and release the mag with your bare hands. You have to use the tip of a bullet or other tool to release the magazine.

So it is legally a fixed magazine but technically can be removed instantly with a tool or button thereby skirting the law
 

Hoofbite

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Wanted to mention this a while back but been working on a new computer that is just about done, and had a recent unfortunate loss of a family member that made me think about the issue again.

Thinking about all these shootings, there are some pretty strong commonalities with a majority of the shooters. Most notably, they were mentally unstable. Not shocking because it's been widely reported, but to varying degrees the shooters at Roseburg, Sandy Hook, and UC Santa Barbara all had a known history of some mental health issue going on throughout their life.

Sandy Hooke and Roseburg shooters lived at home with their lives sheltered and protected by their mothers. Adam Lanza's mental health profile is almost maddening when you read about how his mother basically enabled him to spiral. She ignored medical advice, rebuffed treatment recommendations, and let this kid cut all contact with everyone (even with her) and communicated by email from inside the same fucking house?

Roseburg shooter was discharged from the Army. Supposedly he tried to kill himself. Also lived at home with his mom, went to school for special needs kids, and when he was like 16 years old was upset by the sound of dogs barking and people in the neighborhood.

Elliot O. Rodgers had a long ass history. Parents apparently sought help from counselors and therapists. Parents of other children supposedly didn't want their kid hanging around him. He had to change HS multiple times, once after literally becoming overwhelmed in the hall and just freezing. Froze 100% and didn't fucking move until his mom came in and got him. Mom called the police on him to check his mental state after seeing one of his YouTube videos a moth or so before the shooting. He bullshitted them well enough and they didn't check his place for items he could use to potentially cause harm to himself or others. He later stated in a following video that if they had checked his apartment, his entire plan would have been busted.

The questions I have are:

1. At point do we start trying to educate and convince parent to seek help at the first sign of mental health issues?​

2. At what point do we start requiring people who work with children and adolescents that display behavior so far out of the ordinary to report the behavior to mental healthcare provider so that medical professionals can assess the behavior and determine if an evaluation or intervention is needed? I gotta believe this has to already exist in some fashion but how do kids like these guys not ever raise enough alarms over the course of time to warrant a mental hold for a thorough evaluation and to assess if there is a need for treatment?​

3. How many more of these situations need to occur before we start sending the message that maybe homes with persons who: have certain mental health issues; display certain types of behavior or; have attempted suicide probably shouldn't have guns in them? At bare minimum, how long until we advise parents or family members with such relatives to seek out a psychiatric evaluation to determine if their loved one is potentially a danger to themselves or others if guns are accessible in the home?​

Last one, and it's pretty much one that I have been thinking about for a long time and was reminded about just this last week. Should there be mental health checks prior to gun ownership for persons who have displayed such behavior.

4. Should there be a hurdle in place to prevent people who have attempted suicide, demonstrated suicide ideation, or who have repeatedly demonstrated extremely violent behaviors/tendencies from owning a gun until they have undergone a psychiatric evaluation and have been cleared by a medical professional?​

I'm pretty sure I read that Elliot O. Rodgers wouldn't have been allowed to purchase a gun if had a previous involuntary mental heal admission. Does anyone know if this is a state specific law?

In general, it seems like the mental health aspect gets some play right around the time of these incidents, but nobody really seems to have any suggestions about what to do. Personally, I think we should encourage parents/relatives to seek help as soon they recognize something may be off. Also, seek help when a relative with a documented mental health history starts exhibiting concerning changes in behavior or is regressing. Nearly all of these guys have stories of things getting worse over time. At what point would the parents of the Sandy Hook and Roseburg shooters stopped enabling their behavior by shielding them from the world and sought help? At what point would the UC shooter's parents stopped trying to avoid the issue by allowing him to jump from school to school and buying him a status symbol BMW. That's literally why his mom bought that for him. She thought it would help him. Lastly, reevaluate if having guns accessible to this person is the wisest choice.

Maybe the fact that Lanza and Harper-Mercer were grown adults who were living at home and exhibiting some of the behaviors that were reported after a lifetime of mental health concerns is evidence enough that they may not need to have access to guns. Maybe an adult who lives at home, has lifelong mental health concerns, and who has failed to adjust to such a degree that they are emotionally and socially isolated and dependent on parental care-taking for their entire life shouldn't have access to guns. Maybe guns in the home, and accessible to, such a person would fall under the category of irresponsible gun ownership.

Just my thoughts. Wanted to post it a while back but I got knee deep into a new CPU build and then just this last week I got a shitty little reminder that I meant to post this stuff.
 

Scot

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In California you are responsible for securing any firearm registered to you. If a minor gains access to your registered firearm and commits a crime with it you are responsible, not the minor. The firearm owner will be charged with a felony if the minor commits a crime with an unsecured firearm

"Secured firearm" either means locked in a safe or the use of a trigger lock must be employed which makes it impossible to pull the trigger even if someone gains access to the firearm
 

Doomsday

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Good post Hoof and good questions too. It's definitely a people problem, not a tool problem.

If you don't fix the people problems then even without guns, you still got problems with other tool use including autos and knives. Poisons, even bare hands.
 

Hoofbite

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I guess. I mean, no surprise they can't get laid, they're fucking socially inept and don't know how to interact with people, and they have fucked up mental states.

Doesn't exactly scream, "pussy magnet".
 

Doomsday

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Saw this video today and it brought up the connection between sexually frustrated males and mass shootings. It’s not the only piece of the puzzle but i can see the connection.
I guess. I mean, no surprise they can't get laid, they're fucking socially inept and don't know how to interact with people, and they have fucked up mental states.
But of course, all of this is minor shit compared to the daily shooting deaths in the inner cities no one wants to talk about. Yeah, those Chicago, DC and Detroit shootings, where the gun laws are most strict anywhere in the country? And where the criminals just, ignore them.

It's comfortable to point fingers and poke fun at the typical "mass shooter" while totally forgetting that shooting deaths in the inner cities kill 100 times more people in just one month, than all of the well publicized mass shootings in the last 10 years combined.

And that stat doesn't seem to bother anyone at all.

So clearly this shows it's not about "saving lives" at all. It's about something else entirely.
 

Scot

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It's about votes
It's always about votes

Your typical politician is just a wallet full of money, easily swayed in opinion to whichever side pays I mean donates the most.
 

Doomsday

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It's about votes
For whom? In districts where gun control is a big issue, the leftist who proposes the strictest gun laws wins?

Look at the map - everywhere we have the serious shooting death problem has been controlled almost unopposed by the Democrat Party for decades. They are going to win those areas, gun laws or no.

So, you're wrong. Getting elected is how they PASS the restrictive gun laws and bans. It's not how they GET elected.
 

Sheik

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Unfortunately it won't stop until there are no more "gun free zones".

They don't tend to pull this shit in places where people can shoot back.

There is no real way to fix this. You can take all the measures you want to try and stop guns from getting into the wrong hands, but these crazies will find a way to do what they want to do. Guns or no guns, plenty of other ways to kill yourself and others if you're inclined to do so.
 

Doomsday

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They don't tend to pull this shit in places where people can shoot back.
DING!!!

They choose low risk targets even though they intend suicide.... Not unlike IslamoNazis who are also sexually repressed and frustrated, loner losers like the meme stereotype professed before. Interesting how Maher's little stereotype meme posted before applies to all the Islamic "martyrs" out there, but the Everlasts of the world never make the connection.

Guns or no guns, plenty of other ways to kill yourself and others if you're inclined to do so.
Right now in gun free Israel for the last 10 days, there is a wave of knife murder violence... They better ban knives now too, right?
 

JBond

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The questions I have are:

1. At point do we start trying to educate and convince parent to seek help at the first sign of mental health issues?​

2. At what point do we start requiring people who work with children and adolescents that display behavior so far out of the ordinary to report the behavior to mental healthcare provider so that medical professionals can assess the behavior and determine if an evaluation or intervention is needed? I gotta believe this has to already exist in some fashion but how do kids like these guys not ever raise enough alarms over the course of time to warrant a mental hold for a thorough evaluation and to assess if there is a need for treatment?​

3. How many more of these situations need to occur before we start sending the message that maybe homes with persons who: have certain mental health issues; display certain types of behavior or; have attempted suicide probably shouldn't have guns in them? At bare minimum, how long until we advise parents or family members with such relatives to seek out a psychiatric evaluation to determine if their loved one is potentially a danger to themselves or others if guns are accessible in the home?​

4. Should there be a hurdle in place to prevent people who have attempted suicide, demonstrated suicide ideation, or who have repeatedly demonstrated extremely violent behaviors/tendencies from owning a gun until they have undergone a psychiatric evaluation and have been cleared by a medical professional?​

1. Seriously? Maybe an infomercial, or do you want congress to create laws that you believe will make parents be better parents? Sigh...


2. It already exists. Millions of children have been prescribed mind altering drugs because the government mandated education system said they need them. Turns out those drugs aren't so good for them.

3. See #1

4. Already in place. It is illegal to buy a gun if you are nuts, abuse drugs, or alcohol.
 
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