junk

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Well I guess we aren't going to agree on this but I think you're vastly underestimating the value of the education.

And no, the school can't make the players use that opportunity. But it is provided to them, and they get tutors and all kinds of help that the average student never gets. If the player throws that away, that's on them. It's no different than if you gave them 100k and they gambled it all away.

Finally, it seems like you're focusing only on the future NFL stars who are going to make it big in the league. But that's only a tiny percentage of players. I don't see how the school is "using" a third string guard who only gets on the field in blowouts and never has any chance of playing in the NFL.

Right. He keeps talking about the logistics of it, but, really, that is what would prevent it.

You have a handful of schools that would be able to pay guys anything significant. Then you have a whole bunch of schools that can barely afford athletics as it is (especially when you get to smaller schools). What about schools like Montana that take D1 games just to help fund their athletic programs? Now granted, they still manage to pump out tons of legit NFL talent, but they can't afford to pay them.

Sure, your Texases, Alabamas, Ohio States and USCs could pay players a lot of money. Do you really think even a school like Northwestern can afford to pay their football players much?
 

Jon88

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They get a free education. If they aren't happy with that then it shows you how stupid they are.
 
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Well I guess we aren't going to agree on this but I think you're vastly underestimating the value of the education.

And no, the school can't make the players use that opportunity. But it is provided to them, and they get tutors and all kinds of help that the average student never gets. If the player throws that away, that's on them. It's no different than if you gave them 100k and they gambled it all away.
You don't see the difference between giving a non-transferrable commodity to a player and giving money to a player?

Finally, it seems like you're focusing only on the future NFL stars who are going to make it big in the league. But that's only a tiny percentage of players. I don't see how the school is "using" a third string guard who only gets on the field in blowouts and never has any chance of playing in the NFL.
If players were being paid their market value, then maybe that third string guard at Alabama who never gets on the field goes to Texas Tech and starts for four years... Maybe he develops into an NFL caliber talent. Maybe Alabama doesn't have 90 guys on the roster, when they're only using 50 per game. Maybe it spreads around the talent among more division one schools and brings more parity.

But if that third string guard is practicing, he's helping to improve the talent of the guys he's practicing with and against. Whether he plays or not, his talents are being used. If he weren't useful to the school, then they wouldn't give him a scholarship.

Regardless, the degree of usefulness of the bottom feeders on the roster really has no impact on the usefulness of the stars. If true free market principles are used, then the schools and athletes will work out the fair pay of the third string guard themselves.

The way the system is now, all the players are treated exactly the same. They all get the same scholarship and room & board. That's not free market.
 
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Right. He keeps talking about the logistics of it, but, really, that is what would prevent it.

You have a handful of schools that would be able to pay guys anything significant. Then you have a whole bunch of schools that can barely afford athletics as it is (especially when you get to smaller schools). What about schools like Montana that take D1 games just to help fund their athletic programs? Now granted, they still manage to pump out tons of legit NFL talent, but they can't afford to pay them.
I suppose if the school doesn't want to participate in the free market system, then they would have that option. Of course their programs would suffer with lesser talent, but that's already happening. The athletes who choose to go there on just a scholarship and room & board could still do so, especially if the free market isn't going to pay them anything more.

It's going to take years, probably decades for revenue-producing sports to evolve into free market systems. I suspect you would be surprised how many schools would participate.

Sure, your Texases, Alabamas, Ohio States and USCs could pay players a lot of money. Do you really think even a school like Northwestern can afford to pay their football players much?
I don't know what they will be able to afford to pay their players. All I'm advocating for is the opportunity for the players to get what they deserve. I suspect that if Northwestern can afford to pay Pat Fitzgerald $2 million plus per year to be the football coach, they are doing alright.
 
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198ioih2yz6wujpg.jpg


The highest paid public employee in 39 of the 50 states is a basketball coach and/or football coach.
 
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OK, so put aside what everyone wants to talk about for a few seconds -- paying the players.

It seems like everyone agrees major changes need to be made to the NCAA model to protect the players. How do you anti-union guys propose players push for those changes without unions? Go it alone? That's like asking a single voter to affect major changes in Washington.
 

dbair1967

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I friend of mine played at BYU. I guarantee you two things:

1) He would have refused to be paid even if it was policy. Way he was raised or something I think.

2) Had he been drafted by the Washington Redskins, he would have declined. It just wouldn't have been right to wear that uniform.
 

ThoughtExperiment

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You don't see the difference between giving a non-transferrable commodity to a player and giving money to a player?

Of course I do. I never claimed they were identical.

If players were being paid their market value, then maybe that third string guard at Alabama who never gets on the field goes to Texas Tech and starts for four years... Maybe he develops into an NFL caliber talent. Maybe Alabama doesn't have 90 guys on the roster, when they're only using 50 per game. Maybe it spreads around the talent among more division one schools and brings more parity.

But if that third string guard is practicing, he's helping to improve the talent of the guys he's practicing with and against. Whether he plays or not, his talents are being used. If he weren't useful to the school, then they wouldn't give him a scholarship.

Regardless, the degree of usefulness of the bottom feeders on the roster really has no impact on the usefulness of the stars. If true free market principles are used, then the schools and athletes will work out the fair pay of the third string guard themselves.

The way the system is now, all the players are treated exactly the same. They all get the same scholarship and room & board. That's not free market.
Well one, I doubt that third string guard ever becomes an NFL player. He probably doesn't for the same reason most don't -- because he's simply not talented enough, not because of the way he's trained.

You've several times about the players being useful to the schools, like they're just chattel. But the player benefits from the school, too. Otherwise they wouldn't go to school at all. Seems like it's a pretty arms-length transaction to me.

But I think we all know this isn't a free marketplace. Very few things are. If it were, it probably would be like Hoof sort of suggested several posts back and they'd just be outright pro leagues where they didn't even have to go to school.

Would you be happy if the players were able to be drafted right out of high school so they didn't have to go to college at all? (Which as we've talked about, they still don't "have" to.) What I think would happen then is that very, very few players would be drafted, and 99% of them would go to school anyway.

I personally don't think anything has to be changed. But maybe a decent compromise would be to let the players market their likeness? Then the Manziels and Reggie Bushes would be able to make money roughly commensurate with their value on the field and the replacement level backups wouldn't.
 
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I friend of mine played at BYU. I guarantee you two things:

1) He would have refused to be paid even if it was policy. Way he was raised or something I think.

2) Had he been drafted by the Washington Redskins, he would have declined. It just wouldn't have been right to wear that uniform.

LOL Nice.
 
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Of course I do. I never claimed they were identical.
I just think the compensation that a person gets in the marketplace should be up to the person providing services. If I want to accept payment in DAR from my clients, I should be able to do that. If I trade my services for plumbing work on my house, I should be free to do that. If I want to be paid in currency, then I can do that. Likewise, if an athlete is providing services according to an agreement with a school, their compensation shouldn't be limited to compensation in the form of a free education. I'm not saying that an athlete can't agree to accept only an education as compensation... basically it should be up to the person providing services.

It just so happens that the most commonly traded compensation in the US is the dollar. It logically follows that everyone will assume that athletes want to be paid money... but that may not be the case with all of them.

Well one, I doubt that third string guard ever becomes an NFL player. He probably doesn't for the same reason most don't -- because he's simply not talented enough, not because of the way he's trained.
If he's not interested in playing on the field, then it follows that he would probably agree to play football on a traditional scholarship.

You've several times about the players being useful to the schools, like they're just chattel. But the player benefits from the school, too. Otherwise they wouldn't go to school at all. Seems like it's a pretty arms-length transaction to me.
Sure, the player benefits from the school. But it's not an arms-length transaction. The term arms-length transaction implies that both parties to the transaction are on equal footing. The fact that football and basketball players have little other options to play their sport after high school and cannot negotiate the entirety of their agreement puts the player and the school on unequal footing

But I think we all know this isn't a free marketplace. Very few things are. If it were, it probably would be like Hoof sort of suggested several posts back and they'd just be outright pro leagues where they didn't even have to go to school.
What do you mean very few things are a free marketplace?

Would you be happy if the players were able to be drafted right out of high school so they didn't have to go to college at all? (Which as we've talked about, they still don't "have" to.) What I think would happen then is that very, very few players would be drafted, and 99% of them would go to school anyway.

I personally don't think anything has to be changed. But maybe a decent compromise would be to let the players market their likeness? Then the Manziels and Reggie Bushes would be able to make money roughly commensurate with their value on the field and the replacement level backups wouldn't.
If the players had the opportunity to be drafted right out of high school, then that would help. I think, just like the NBA, some high school players would be successful, and there would be some who would be drafted. But if college football and basketball continue to be profitable at the levels they are and they don't change their system, then I will still have a problem with that. I'm totally in agreement with allowing players to market themselves. And let's be honest, if players are allowed to do that, the high profile schools will recruit the players on the visibility of their programs (like they already do), and include the ability to gain endorsements. It would be a part of the "compensation package" for the recruits.

I think the writing is on the wall... this is going to happen eventually. The NCAA is under too much pressure right now for it not to happen. In fact, I think schools and conferences are already making preparations for it.
 

Jon88

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Pep is here for the student athletes across America.

He will fight for YOU.
 
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