Northwestern University football players can unionize, federal agency says

[peplaw06]

But that's the problem -- the devil is in the details. Surely paying Cam Newton the same as a third string guard wouldn't last long. How do you possibly create a system that's "fair" in this case? The only way is to let the market decide, and then you're into a full scale true professional league.

It doesn't have to be fair. And what's wrong with letting the market decide? College basketball and college football are already essentially professional leagues under the guise of amateurism.

As for the players being forced to go to college... Who is making them? It's not like making the NFL is a right. If it were that big a problem I think the market would create a sort of minor league pro league for players to kill two years while they waited to become eligible for the NFL. Anyone remember Eric Swann? But there's no market for that because it's only a tiny percentage of players who are good enough to make the NFL anyway.

I think a minor league system is what is needed. If the athletes want to go to the NFL and the NFL can draft them and have a system tied to the franchises where they can be coached up, there will be a ton of them who choose to do that and forego college. Then the players can get paid what the market will bear, and the players who can't make it will not move up. Then if they decide that they need an education, they can go do that later.

The universities and the NCAA will be adamantly opposed, but it's none of their business. The fact of the matter is the NFL and the NCAA love their current arrangement. NFL franchises don't have to pay for minor leagues, the NCAA makes money hand over fists, and they don't have to give a dime of it to the players. Scholarships don't mean anything other than the school isn't bringing in the money that the athletes would be paying for tuition and room & board. Hell, state universities probably still get paid for certain things that the athletes use/consume an for their education.

I just have a problem painting these guys as victims when they're getting a free education that's worth up to $100k (or more in some cases). And a degree is worth seven figures over the course of their lifetimes vs. having only a high school degree. That's not to mention all the tutoring they get, the campus fame they get from being a football player, etc. If they don't take advantage of that, that's their fault.

Now a bigger stipend so the poorer players can afford to go to a movie or travel back home... Okay.

But if they could be making 7 figures a year right out of high school, compare that to an education that's worth 100k over 4 years... If there were a child prodigy who had all the credentials necessary to do ANY OTHER job at 18, he/she would be able to do it at 18. NFL and NBA are literally the only professions where you don't need a degree, and you can't start doing them as soon as you're eligible to work. How is that "fair?"

 

[peplaw06]

They are not employees. They are kids that are volunteering to play a game in exchange for free stuff. In this case a very expensive education. They do not sign a contract as an employee of the college or university. They have no standing as I have said. Can you cite a precedent that supports the ruling of the NLRB?

They sign letters of intent and they sign the scholarship agreement. Those are contracts.

I'm not a union lawyer, and I'm not going hunting for precedent from the NLRB. Their ruling is their ruling right now, but it doesn't really matter. I'm more concerned with the theories involved.

 

[JBond]

They sign letters of intent and they sign the scholarship agreement. Those are contracts.

I'm not a union lawyer, and I'm not going hunting for precedent from the NLRB. Their ruling is their ruling right now, but it doesn't really matter. I'm more concerned with the theories involved.

They are contracts for an exchange of goods and services. Not employment contracts. Big difference. I think we both agree reform is needed, but we disagree how that reform should take place.

 

[CobraKai]

cuz i wuz told unions r bad

 

[JBond]

Where is my damn sandwich? Get back in that kitchen!

I am sure the Steelworkers union only has best intentions of the student athletes in mind. How altruistic of them. It's really not a money grab by a greedy union. Really, it's not.

 

[CobraKai]

knew it.

 

[peplaw06]

They are contracts for an exchange of goods and services. Not employment contracts. Big difference. I think we both agree reform is needed, but we disagree how that reform should take place.

Tell me the distinction between a contract that an NFL player signs with his team and the scholarship agreement an athlete signs with a university. Why is one an employee and the other isn't?

All contracts are for an exchange of goods, services, or money.

 

[JBond]

If you are not able to understand the difference between kids voluntarily playing a game in college and a professional NFL career, I am not sure I will be able to help you, but if you show me the contracts I will explain the differences for you. Jeez, I thought you went to law school or something.

 

[JBond]

knew it.

You know nothing.

 

[peplaw06]

If you are not able to understand the difference between kids voluntarily playing a game in college and a professional NFL career, I am not sure I will be able to help you, but if you show me the contracts I will explain the differences for you. Jeez, I thought you went to law school or something.

Answer the question or GTFO. I'm not asking for the "differences" between a NFL player and a college athlete. You made the distinction between an employment contract and a contract for goods and services. I want to know why you think there's a distinction.

Both players are playing football in exchange for something. What's the distinction? Or are you just talking out your ass like usual?

 

[CobraKai]

 

[JBond]

I offered an olive branch to you saying we agree on some principle points but disagree with how they should be reached and now you behave like this.

This must be very embarrassing for you. You really do not understand the difference between an agreement for the exchange of goods and services and an employment contract. Technically scholarships and contracts for employment are both bilateral contracts, but the difference is in the terms, restrictions, liability, etc. The devil is in the details, so to speak. College scholarships are governed by NCAA and must fit within their rules and regulations. The students are not employees. They are students.

My employees sign contracts that govern just about all aspects of their job while in my employ. Just because I have agreements with my clients and vendors for certain services does not make them my employees or make me their employee. That is just silly.

 

[peplaw06]

I offered an olive branch to you saying we agree on some principle points but disagree with how they should be reached and now you behave like this.

You can take your olive branch and break it off in your ass. Don't come in here and make your snarky "didn't you go to law school," "this must be embarrassing for you," bullshit comments and claim you're offering me an olive branch.

This must be very embarrassing for you. You really do not understand the difference between an agreement for the exchange of goods and services and an employment contract. Technically scholarships and contracts for employment are both bilateral contracts, but the difference is in the terms, restrictions, liability, etc. The devil is in the details, so to speak. College scholarships are governed by NCAA and must fit within their rules and regulations. The students are not employees. They are students.

Your logic is circular. Your only distinction appears to be that students are not employees because they are students and not employees.

All employment contracts are contracts for the exchange of services and money or goods.

An employment contract is a contract where one party (employer) offers compensation to the other party (employee) in exchange for the other party's (employee's) services. In the NFL, the franchise or owner (employer) offers compensation in the form of a salary and bonuses to an athlete (employee) in exchange for the athletes services in playing football. In NCAA football, the university (employer) offers compensation in the form of tuition, room & board, books, and athletic equipment to an athlete (employee) in exchange for the athlete's services in playing football.

The fact that one is a student and one is not, is like trying to distinguish two separate employees because one plays video games in his off time and the other plays golf. It doesn't make a shit.

College scholarships are governed by NCAA regs, just like NFL contracts are governed by NFL regs. Sure, they may have different details as far as player conduct and what the athlete can and cannot do, but again, those details are not going to make one an employee and the other just a "who gives a fuck."

My employees sign contracts that govern just about all aspects of their job while in my employ. Just because I have agreements with my clients and vendors for certain services does not make them my employees or make me their employee. That is just silly.

You're really hung up on this term "employee." I have clients, and when I sign a retainer agreement with my client, I am working for them. You can call me their employee, if that makes it simpler for you. But I'm not beholden to them as to any specifics of how I do my job, and I am still "self-employed." As long as I do the job, or provide the service, I'm being compensated to provide, it doesn't matter if I work x number of hours per day or take x many vacation days, etc.

But all that is really apples and oranges to the athlete comparison. Both athletes are providing similar services, and both the franchise and the school are providing compensation for those services.

 

[JBond]

Good post. It is making me rethink this issue. I can admit when I go off the rails a bit. The term "employee" is key to understanding this issue based on the ruling by the NLRB. We will see what the courts decide. In the personal example you gave, I believe you are a independent contractor, not an employee.

Both athletes are providing similar services, and both the franchise and the school are providing compensation for those services.

The student athlete is not on the payroll of the university. They are receiving a grant, or a gift if you like, for voluntarily playing a sport. With that being said I may backtrack a little based on the definition of a contractor vs employee.

The standards that courts use to define an employee are various and depend on the going alternative. A six-factor test is used to distinguish employees from interns. It revolves, in large part, around who benefits. The test for distinguishing between employees and independent contractors revolves around who controls the work. College athletes have a strong argument for employee status on both grounds. Their work, for which they receive renewable one-year scholarships, generates billions annually, and they do it according to the exacting demands of their coaches.

The NCAA and/or colleges could simply do an end around this decision by requiring all the student athletes to sign a arbitration agreement that forbids them from filling any collective claims or class actions.

 

[Bob Sacamano]

More free money given to blackies.

 

[Bluenoser]

I just think "student athletes" should be able to profit off their name and likeness.

This. Don't pay them but let sell autographs, do commercials, sell their tickets to games or whatever.

They probably deserve so kind of medical also.

 

[Bluenoser]

More free money given to blackies.

Says the money grubbing jew. You are a jew right?

 

[Bluenoser]

Is Jbond a business owner? Trying to figure out why he has so much hate for unions. As a carpenter I would love to get into the union. It seems that most of the people that are in unions have only good things to say.

 

[jeebus]

I love how forcing colleges to pay players is "letting the market decide". I hate to break this to you, but the market has already decided; people would rather receive what the college gives them than money. That is the market and it has spoken. Now people want the government to fix the market so the privileged group gets both what the market decides and what the government demands. North western should release their entire football team if they don't want to play.

 

[jeebus]

Is Jbond a business owner? Trying to figure out why he has so much hate for unions. As a carpenter I would love to get into the union. It seems that most of the people that are in unions have only good things to say.

Because they are not competent enough to go on their own, so they lie it. The really good guys would rather be paid what they are worth, the schlubs love getting guaranteed average pay.

Also, the union kills jobs so it can overpay the average, of course those who manage to benifet enjoy the system.