12/19 Gosselin Chat

[Bob Sacamano]

That may be the reason BP used, but Parcells' teams always ran the 3-4. I'm sure he felt it was easier to find those players since that's what he was used to looking for and selling it to Jerry on financial terms was wise in order for him to get his way whether it was true or not.

Parcells liked the 3-4 because it suited his "planet theory". In theory, no pun intended, yeah, it's a great idea, but this isn't the '90s anymore where you can just overwhelm the opponent with size and toughness. Bradie James, for example, has both in spades, but they're neutralized once you force him to move around in space, which today's offenses tend to do.

Of course you could say, "Well, if they're going to be big, then they need to be fast too.", but those types of players are few and far between. Good ones at least.

I can't say that we've really run a true 3-4 because we've never disguised the 3rd blitzer, with the exception of a corner or safety blitz here and there. So if we can't do that or are unable to find the players who are capable of doing such, which we've been struggling with since the 3-4's inception in Dallas, then we might as well call it for what it is, a failed expirament, and go back to the 4-3.

BTW this coming from a guy who argued constantly that we shouldn't switch back to the 4-3 not that long ago.

 

[jiggyfly]

Yeah the whole "taking years away from him" thing is probably just a meme from when Parcells was trying to convince Ellis that he would be adding years onto his career as a stand up player. The fact is the weakside end and the weakside OLB get similar matchups in their careers. They are always going to be singled up on the tackle or hit/chipped by the back/TE. It's not like this suddenly happens more if you put your hand on the ground. The only difference is that you're not dropping in coverage, which Ware rarely does anyway, but has done more this year than I can ever remember.

It would be a huge change to the 4-3 because we have no OLBs. Everything else would be pretty easy to fill, but outside of Lee we've got noone to play LB in a 4-3 (don't say Carter).

Taking years way is subjective but it stands to reason that if you ask a player to subject his body to more damage it could take away from his longevity.

As for there being little difference, that's totally false a OLB plays in space much more than a DE, a OLB seldom gets double teamed in running situations but a DE does a lot, especially when they are a player of Ware's caliber.

It seems that everybody is looking at this from a pass rush perspective and are totally forgetting the responsibilities a DE has against the run and how that differs from a OLB.

 

[Bob Sacamano]

For argument's sake, would you take a banged up DeMarcus Ware or a better overall Defense?

Hell, that neck stinger is going to flare up into something serious in a couple years anyways. Isn't this the 2nd year that he's been battling that thing?

 

[superpunk]

Taking years way is subjective but it stands to reason that if you ask a player to subject his body to more damage it could take away from his longevity.

As for there being little difference, that's totally false a OLB plays in space much more than a DE, a OLB seldom gets double teamed in running situations but a DE does a lot, especially when they are a player of Ware's caliber.

It seems that everybody is looking at this from a pass rush perspective and are totally forgetting the responsibilities a DE has against the run and how that differs from a OLB.

Not at all. But in any defense, whether it is 43 or 34 your best pass rusher is going to play the weakside rush end spot. The matchups they are going to get are going to almost always be the same.

 

[jiggyfly]

For argument's sake, would you take a banged up DeMarcus Ware or a better overall Defense?

Hell, that neck stinger is going to flare up into something serious in a couple years anyways. Isn't this the 2nd year that he's been battling that thing?

1st of all there is no guarantee the defense is better, especially when you consider you are asking the best player to do something different.

Outside of Ratliff who else benefits from the switch, we are not playing a pure 3/4 currently anyway so I don't think anything miraculous happens with a switch.

 

[jiggyfly]

Not at all. But in any defense, whether it is 43 or 34 your best pass rusher is going to play the weakside rush end spot. The matchups they are going to get are going to almost always be the same.

That still does not address the issue of having Ware playing over a tackle more often and subjecting him to more double teams on running downs as a undersized DE.

As a OLB he rarely lines up head up on the the OT as a DE he will do this 75% of the time.

 

[superpunk]

That still does not address the issue of having Ware playing over a tackle more often and subjecting him to more double teams on running downs as a undersized DE.

As a OLB he rarely lines up head up on the the OT as a DE he will do this 75% of the time.

There isn't a 4-3 end in the league who lines up "head up" on a tackle any percent of the time, much less 75%. They're outside the tackle, with a DT inside of them either playing 3 or 5 technique. The ONLY difference for Ware would be having his hand on the ground, not dropping in coverage as much, and maybe lining up a few feet closer to the tackle than he does now. In terms of additional contact, there is almost no change.

 

[jiggyfly]

There isn't a 4-3 end in the league who lines up "head up" on a tackle any percent of the time, much less 75%. They're outside the tackle, with a DT inside of them either playing 3 or 5 technique. The ONLY difference for Ware would be having his hand on the ground, not dropping in coverage as much, and maybe lining up a few feet closer to the tackle than he does now. In terms of additional contact, there is almost no change.

Your right they are not head up that much, what I meant to convey was that would engaging the OT 75% of the time, something a 3/4 OLB does not do.

If you think there is no additional contact as a DE then please explain who the DE is going up against in a 3/4 defense and who the OLB is going up against.

Its way off base to think there would be almost no change, there responsibilities are totally different.

 

[Bob Sacamano]

1st of all there is no guarantee the defense is better, especially when you consider you are asking the best player to do something different.

Outside of Ratliff who else benefits from the switch, we are not playing a pure 3/4 currently anyway so I don't think anything miraculous happens with a switch.

Sean Lee would flourish in any scheme and I'm sure the secondary would feel some sort of relief not waiting for the OLBs to run around the OTs, as opposed to taking a more perpendicular path to the QB, for example.

 

[jiggyfly]

Sean Lee would flourish in any scheme and I'm sure the secondary would feel some sort of relief not waiting for the OLBs to run around the OTs, as opposed to taking a more perpendicular path to the QB, for example.

I can see Sean Lee benefiting but there is no guarantee the DE's would be anymore effective in pass rushing its not like they don't play them as DE's in nickel situations as it is.

I just don't see how having these players put there hand on the ground makes them better pass rushers, they both did this a lot under Wade and there was no big difference.

 

[Bob Sacamano]

I can see Sean Lee benefiting but there is no guarantee the DE's would be anymore effective in pass rushing its not like they don't play them as DE's in nickel situations as it is.

I just don't see how having these players put there hand on the ground makes them better pass rushers, they both did this a lot under Wade and there was no big difference.

idk, I think the fact that everyone is waiting on the pass-rush to get going after the snap is seriously hurting this team. Weak coverage guys are being asked to cover for far too long.

Pass-rushers being right there at the line at 4 spots as opposed to waiting for 2 OLBs to rush an extra 5 yards up the field would probably be better with the players we constantly put out on the field.

 

[superpunk]

Your right they are not head up that much, what I meant to convey was that would engaging the OT 75% of the time, something a 3/4 OLB does not do.

Dude what? I mean if that's where you're coming from with this, if you're thinking Ware is matching up against backs and TEs for the most part, then I don't know where else to go with this convo. That's just not reality. The 3-4 OLBs are CONSTANTLY engaging the offensive tackles. That's pretty much their job - to rush the passer and set the edge on run plays.

If you think there is no additional contact as a DE then please explain who the DE is going up against in a 3/4 defense and who the OLB is going up against.

The offensive tackle, almost exclusively, in both cases - at least for the weakside pass rusher in both schemes. The strongside rusher will get the OT as well, but is more prone to be taking on double teams because he is on the offense's strong-side.

 

[jiggyfly]

Dude what? I mean if that's where you're coming from with this, if you're thinking Ware is matching up against backs and TEs for the most part, then I don't know where else to go with this convo. That's just not reality. The 3-4 OLBs are CONSTANTLY engaging the offensive tackles. That's pretty much their job - to rush the passer and set the edge on run plays.



The offensive tackle, almost exclusively, in both cases - at least for the weakside pass rusher in both schemes. The strongside rusher will get the OT as well, but is more prone to be taking on double teams because he is on the offense's strong-side.

You never answered the one question that would explain my stance, who is the DE going up against in a 3/4?

Ware is in space a lot of the time and is going up against a myriad of different people on running down in a 3/4 the DE is taking on the 0T most of the time and is receiving any double teams on running downs.

 

[superpunk]

You never answered the one question that would explain my stance, who is the DE going up against in a 3/4?

I totally answered that.

"The offensive tackle, almost exclusively, in both cases - at least for the weakside pass rusher in both schemes. The strongside rusher will get the OT as well, but is more prone to be taking on double teams because he is on the offense's strong-side."

Ware is in space a lot of the time and is going up against a myriad of different people on running down in a 3/4 the DE is taking on the 0T most of the time and is receiving any double teams on running downs.

This just isn't even remotely true.

 

[marionbarberthe4th]

Some good footballing going on here, were growing up.

 

[jiggyfly]

I totally answered that.

"The offensive tackle, almost exclusively, in both cases - at least for the weakside pass rusher in both schemes. The strongside rusher will get the OT as well, but is more prone to be taking on double teams because he is on the offense's strong-side."

This just isn't even remotely true.

Wait what?

So if the OT is playing the DE who is blocking the OLB in a 3/4?

 

[marionbarberthe4th]

I don't want to be pigeonholed into any base, but god damn our D seems confused w/ what's already on their plate .

What happens when Ratliff slows down or is done? Holding up the way he has is rare but finding a Phil Taylor type human is rarer

 

[Bob Sacamano]

I was totally against drafting Phil Taylor in the 1st round. How wrong I was.

 

[jiggyfly]

I was totally against drafting Phil Taylor in the 1st round. How wrong I was.

I liked Taylor as a player I think he could have played the DE as well as the nose.

I have heard some lukewarm things about him coming out of Cleveland.

 

[Bob Sacamano]

I liked Taylor as a player I think he could have played the DE as well as the nose.

I have heard some lukewarm things about him coming out of Cleveland.

I haven't been able to catch many Brown games, but that stats look pretty good.