Trayvon Martin shooting: Zimmerman says Trayvon decked him, then began hammering him

[Jon88]

Dude, you fucking reached for your gun cause some guy on the street looked at you wrong.

Dude, no I did not.

 

[peplaw06]

If you menacingly stare at me while you're walking by my truck, continue to stare in the same manner when you walk in front of it, then stop and walk up to my truck with that same menacing stare, you're going to piss me off and I will shoot you if you open my door.

What don't you understand about that?

...

 

[JBond]

Dude, you fucking reached for your gun cause some guy on the street looked at you wrong.

Um.. A look is very different than an attempted car jacking.

 

[Jon88]

That pussy doesn't understand that.

 

[peplaw06]

Y'all are fucking morons. I know Jon didn't actually *shoot* the guy. This particular conversation is about the thought process in seeing a stranger on the street act in a way that is threatening.

If the guy had approached the driver's door and opened it, it would be almost exactly like what Zimmerman did to Trayvon. Jon thought it was threatening, and he reached for his gun, and he's an adult. Trayvon was a teenager.

Are you both really so dense that you can't understand why Trayvon would have felt his life was threatened?

 

[iceberg]

Y'all are fucking morons. I know Jon didn't actually *shoot* the guy. This particular conversation is about the thought process in seeing a stranger on the street act in a way that is threatening.

If the guy had approached the driver's door and opened it, it would be almost exactly like what Zimmerman did to Trayvon. Jon thought it was threatening, and he reached for his gun, and he's an adult. Trayvon was a teenager.

Are you both really so dense that you can't understand why Trayvon would have felt his life was threatened?

if you felt your life was threatened, would you approach the man threatening you after you "got away"?

 

[Jon88]

I have no idea what he's talking about.

 

[marionbarberthe4th]

That's only bc you're dumb

 

[Hoofbite]

if you felt your life was threatened, would you approach the man threatening you after you "got away"?

So says Zimmerman. But then again he also said he was returning to his truck but its pretty clear he followed even after dispatch told him not to.

 

[iceberg]

So says Zimmerman. But then again he also said he was returning to his truck but its pretty clear he followed even after dispatch told him not to.

and if you think zimmerman is already a liar then it really doesn't matter and even discussing it it kinda pointless.

he said he was following, was told not to do that, so was headed back to his vehicle. he told 911 he lost him anyway and that's on tape. did he just say that so he could initiate confrontation and have a more "solid" case after he went through with the killing he seems so intent on planning, knowing police are minutes away?

 

[peplaw06]

if you felt your life was threatened, would you approach the man threatening you after you "got away"?

1) Where did Trayvon "approach" Zimmerman? They weren't at his truck clearly... the pictures of the scene are all at a sidewalk behind two rows of buildings.

2) I don't see what is so hard to understand about this.... I don't think Trayvon felt his life was in actual danger until George reached for his pocket. He was probably fearful when he started running. I don't think he thought his life was in danger at that point. At that point, Zimmerman hadn't done anything but keep an eye on him (follow him), while on the phone.

It seems like none of you can understand that. You all appear to be moving the line of where this "altercation" occurred back and forth. Who touched who first, who spoke to who first, etc. And now this post, I guess you're claiming that I am arguing Trayvon's life was threatened just by George watching him while he was on the phone. I'm not claiming that.

 

[peplaw06]

I have no idea what he's talking about.

I am stunned.

 

[peplaw06]

he said he was following, was told not to do that, so was headed back to his vehicle. he told 911 he lost him anyway and that's on tape. did he just say that so he could initiate confrontation and have a more "solid" case after he went through with the killing he seems so intent on planning, knowing police are minutes away?

It's pretty clear he was nowhere near his vehicle at the site where Trayvon was killed.

 

[Jon88]

I am stunned.

You live in a dreamworld and you don't make sense.

You're in the right profession.

 

[JBond]

So says Zimmerman. But then again he also said he was returning to his truck but its pretty clear he followed even after dispatch told him not to.

What makes that clear in your mind? How do you know he followed after being asked not to?

 

[JBond]

1) Where did Trayvon "approach" Zimmerman? They weren't at his truck clearly... the pictures of the scene are all at a sidewalk behind two rows of buildings.

2) I don't see what is so hard to understand about this.... I don't think Trayvon felt his life was in actual danger until George reached for his pocket. He was probably fearful when he started running. I don't think he thought his life was in danger at that point. At that point, Zimmerman hadn't done anything but keep an eye on him (follow him), while on the phone.

It seems like none of you can understand that. You all appear to be moving the line of where this "altercation" occurred back and forth. Who touched who first, who spoke to who first, etc. And now this post, I guess you're claiming that I am arguing Trayvon's life was threatened just by George watching him while he was on the phone. I'm not claiming that.

Of course they were not at GZ's truck. No one ever said they were. Your first point is moot. GZ, after being directed by a dispatcher was returning to wait at his truck for the police to arrive. He was in the process of doing so when he was jumped. GZ called the cops and knew they were on their way. Why would he then hunt down Martin knowing the police would be there momentarily? It makes no sense. If he was jumped returning to his truck and shot Martin, he had every right to do so. Martin did a lot more than reach into his pocket. He broke his nose and smashed his head into the concrete. It was only then that GZ used deadly force to save his life.

What does make sense is Martin, a racist, a thief, a person with a history of drug use and violent attacks against random targets, was the aggressor. The facts may play out differently and then I may have a different opinion, but as things sit now you have to consider Martin the aggressor.

 

[Hoofbite]

and if you think zimmerman is already a liar then it really doesn't matter and even discussing it it kinda pointless.

he said he was following, was told not to do that, so was headed back to his vehicle. he told 911 he lost him anyway and that's on tape. did he just say that so he could initiate confrontation and have a more "solid" case after he went through with the killing he seems so intent on planning, knowing police are minutes away?

That doesn't appear to be the case. Not to me. You can hear his door chimes as he gets out of his car and it's only about 12 seconds before he's told not to follow. The call continues for over 1:30 and he hasn't made it back to his truck yet. You don't hear the door chimes and obviously his version would put him away from the truck at this point.

He didn't even sound like he was running himself so it's not like he covered some great distance. You can hear he's picked up his pace because there's wind blowing into the mic and by the change in his voice.

Zimmerman hung up at 7:13:41. It isn't until 7:16:11 that the first call comes in. Rounding to the nearest minute just to assume it took a few seconds for the first caller to actually make the call after hearing screams, we still have 2 minutes to work with which gives us about 3:30 of total time since George was told to stop following and yet he's still nowhere near his truck. How is that possible given that he was only in pursuit for 12-13 seconds prior to being told not to follow?

Furthermore, in the last few seconds of the call he agrees to meet the police at the mail boxes and then says, "actually could you have them call me and I'll tell them where I'm at". Where else could he possibly be? Not by the mail boxes? Not at the location of his truck which he spent a decent amount of time depicting?



If someone can explain how he was still so far from his truck after such a great amount of time passed, I'll listen. I'm not asking for exactly what happened, I just want a guess as to how a guy who was at best jogging for 12-13 seconds was unable to return to his truck before the phone call ended and then after another additional couple minutes had passed was still nowhere near his truck.

I think that's a pretty fair question and this aspect has been the reason why I think George is responsible. Clearly he didn't return to his truck when he was told and even after another couple minutes he still hadn't made it. Given the proposed maps of where he was parked and where the shooting occurred, It's pretty obvious he was scouring around for Trayvon and he pretty much all but says so by asking the police to call him so he can tell them where he would be when they arrived.

Here's a map of the subdivision. I think this is supposed to be the route traveled by Zimmerman and the site I pulled it from says that it's evidence from the trial.

Photo:



Link with 80 or so other random photos:

http://www.hlntv.com/slideshow/2013...-crime-scene-evidence-photos-george-zimmerman

His depiction would put his car somewhere close to where those two pink spots are to the right of the pool. I'm just assuming you can identify the spot where the fight occurred. If he got out, how close could he have possibly gotten to the fight location by just jogging for 12-13 seconds? And this distance couldn't be covered in the 3:30 minutes of walking back that followed? Think about how far beyond the fight spot he would have to be in order to make his walk back to the truck so time consuming that he's still a good distance from his truck when the incident occurred.

Strictly from a numbers perspective it's impossible according to his version. He was told to stop and he began to return to his truck. Okay, I'll run with that.

Walking at a speed of 3 miles per hour a person would cover 924 feet in 3:30 minutes. 300 yards, 300M whatever. Olympians run the 100M in just under 10 seconds. In those 12-13 seconds that you can hear his door shut and he replies "okay" to the dispatcher he was able to cover 300M? He'd be the fastest human alive. Shit, he'd be the fastest land animal alive. Cheetahs run 100M in a little over 6 seconds. Zimmerman does it in just over 4. Hell, probably faster than that. I saw one map that had each building measured at 100 feet in length which would mean that even after all that walking back he was still 50 to 60 yards away from his truck.

I disagree about discussing it being pointless and on this particular point I do think he's omitting what happened in an attempt to save himself. I think it's pretty obvious he was doing something other than returning to his truck after the dispatcher told him he didn't need to follow. If he truly started walking back to his truck when the dispatcher told him and he was jumped along the way, he would have been jumped during the phone call.

I don't think it's pointless because this is shit that people have been ragging on each other for. You have one person who believes that Zimmerman's account is accurate to a "T", someone who's entirely skeptical just based on the timing of the whole situation and both sides have been just flinging shit back and forth.

Myself, I'm open to any sort of ideas that anyone has about what the fuck he was doing in those 3:30 minutes. Or if someone can explain a way in which his version is accurate and he did start back to his truck but couldn't get there in that time, I'll consider it. What seems most likely to me is that he didn't return to his truck. If there's a more reasonable alternative let me know and I'll reevaluate.

Would you not agree that his version seems highly unlikely given the time gap?




Here's another issue I ran across while looking for those maps.

Zimmerman's written statement to police:

http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2012/images/06/21/written_statement_0226.pdf

We have George flat out admitting to following Trayvon on the phone. There's no denying that. Not even the debate between what happened after he was told not to stretches this far because he flat out said he was doing it.

But, in the written statement his reason for getting out his truck was to find a street sign because he couldn't remember what street he was on. He states it twice in his written statement.

"The dispatcher once again asked me for my exactly location. I could not remember the name of the street so I got out of my car to look for a street sign. The dispatcher asked me for a description and the direction the suspect went. I told the dispatcher I did not know but I was out of my vehicle looking for a street sign and the direction the suspect went."

Looking for a street sign but when asked what address he was parked in front of during the phone call and after he had gotten out of his car this was his reply,

"I dunno, it's a cut-through so I don't know the address."

Looking for a street sign but hanging out in the cut-through between streets just in case a misplaced street sign is hanging out in someone's backyard, I guess. Perhaps going over to check the name of the next street over just to make sure they haven't changed the name of the very street he lives on.

His entire subdivision had 3 streets. The one he couldn't remember has entrance gates at both ends. "Captain" of the Neighborhood Watch program; a guy who had called the police numerous times to report suspicious ongoings, some of which date back to 2009 which means he had lived there for over over two years.........

But can't remember the name of the street he would take every single time he entered or exited the community.

 

[peplaw06]

Of course they were not at GZ's truck. No one ever said they were.

It's pretty clear he didn't get too far from his truck while he was on the phone with the dispatch. If you haven't heard the recording, you probably should. It wouldn't take long at all to get back to his truck. Certainly not long enough for Trayvon -- who had run out of the sight of Zimmerman -- to beat George back to his truck.

Your first point is moot.

Methinks you don't know what "moot" means.

GZ, after being directed by a dispatcher was returning to wait at his truck for the police to arrive. He was in the process of doing so when he was jumped. GZ called the cops and knew they were on their way. Why would he then hunt down Martin knowing the police would be there momentarily? It makes no sense. If he was jumped returning to his truck and shot Martin, he had every right to do so. Martin did a lot more than reach into his pocket. He broke his nose and smashed his head into the concrete. It was only then that GZ used deadly force to save his life.

I know this is hard for you to accept, but Zimmerman is lying... *gasp*. He did not return directly to his truck, like he says he did. The facts don't match up with that story. I know, this is probably the first time you've ever heard of a defendant in a criminal trial lying.

What does make sense is Martin, a racist, a thief, a person with a history of drug use and violent attacks against random targets, was the aggressor. The facts may play out differently and then I may have a different opinion, but as things sit now you have to consider Martin the aggressor.

No, I don't.

 

[Hoofbite]

Of course they were not at GZ's truck. No one ever said they were. Your first point is moot. GZ, after being directed by a dispatcher was returning to wait at his truck for the police to arrive. He was in the process of doing so when he was jumped. GZ called the cops and knew they were on their way. Why would he then hunt down Martin knowing the police would be there momentarily? It makes no sense. If he was jumped returning to his truck and shot Martin, he had every right to do so. Martin did a lot more than reach into his pocket. He broke his nose and smashed his head into the concrete. It was only then that GZ used deadly force to save his life.

What does make sense is Martin, a racist, a thief, a person with a history of drug use and violent attacks against random targets, was the aggressor. The facts may play out differently and then I may have a different opinion, but as things sit now you have to consider Martin the aggressor.

Can you explain how he didn't make it back to his truck by the time the phone call with the dispatcher had ended?

Or why he didn't make it back in the other unaccounted for time between his call ending and the first 911 call coming in?

What about the fact that he asked to be called so he could tell the police where he was? He already described the location of his truck and just prior to making this request had agreed to meet them at his truck. Why ask for the call to inform someone of your location if you would be where they expected, and had agreed, to be.


To be honest, neither of the scenarios really makes sense. I don't think George intended on hunting the kid down and I don't think Trayvon jumped him. I'm not sure why George would have to be hunting him any way. I think he was probably just wanting to keep him in his sight so this one didn't get away like the one's he referred to in the phone call. Even more than that I think he enjoyed the idea of being a part of putting a stop to a suspected criminal. He seems to have had a pretty big interest in law enforcement.

I think George pursued him, lost sight of him and the two ended up crossing paths. Neither was likely at ease seeing how Trayvon picked up his pace a bit and George was basically saying he looked like he was on drugs and had his hand in his waist band while he was on the phone with the dispatcher. "He's up to no good" or something like that. George was convinced from the outset that Trayvon didn't belong and that he was either plotting a crime or had just committed one. Trayvon was probably a bit uneasy at the thought of a guy eyeballing him from a vehicle and then getting out to follow him on foot.

When they crossed paths, I would imagine both questioned the other and things escalated from there.

 

[peplaw06]

That's a great post Hoof.... both of them.