Republican Presidential Debate: Winners and Losers of the First GOP Showdown

[Everlastingxxx]

Who cares who published it? It contains FACTS. Libtard, those are PROVEN numbers that were researched and provided to all sorts of news outlets.

Hey fuck face. Christians are very good at skewing statistics and facts. If you believe in the bible be sure to know that i don’t value your opinion very much. You are going to find all the info you need that supports your negative view on immigration. I have looked up info that supports what i believe. I am too lazy and unmotivated to look them up for you at this time. BTW, i don’t hold to any labels. I believe in what makes sense. I don’t hold to any political parties.

 

[Everlastingxxx]

EV has probably accused me of being a racist more than anyone on this board. I am a white, Southern, conservative Christian. That puts me and him on the opposite sides of humanity.

I don’t remember accusing you specifically. I think we both have unconventional views on race.

 

[Dodger12]

I have looked up info that supports what i believe.

So can you find anything the rebuts this article and statistics? Probably something along the lines of illegal aliens are just good, honest, hard working folks that don't drain social services in America?

Old article, but relevant and even more of a fact today as 4 more years of Obama led policies have INCREASED benefits. Also, the number of deportations is down vastly under Obama's socialist regime. Sanctuary cities ring a bell?

Most Illegal Immigrant Families Collect Welfare - Judicial Watch

Most Illegal Immigrant Families Collect Welfare

APRIL 05, 2011

 

[DezIrvin]

Economy, healthy care, and foreign policy.

Too bad Barack Obama can't run for a third term. He sounds like your kind of president.

 

[DezIrvin]

The problem is the United States of America cannot afford to take care of anyone. The USA is essentially on welfare, their check comes from China.

China is actually our second largest foreign debt holder currently, behind Japan. I think both of them max out at about 7% of our total debt. The largest holder of American debt is America.

Most people speak with nothing more than emotion on immigration. For example I hear alot about how much immigrants cost us, with almost no mention of the things we take for granted that are cheaper because we are able to take advantage of immigrants.

The CBO found that "A bipartisan Senate bill that would create a path to legal status for many of the 11.5 million undocumented immigrants in the United States could reduce deficits by $175 billion over the first 10 years and by at least $700 billion in the second decade." CBO: Immigration bill could cut deficits - Jun. 18, 2013

Many undocumented immigrants don't receive benefits of any kind. There is an issue to be seen in support for naturalized children of illegal immigrants, they end up costing taxpayers a significant amount. But our government views that as an investment - in that someday these hopefully educated children will become contributing tax payers.

If America and Mexico's situations were switched, and your option for your family was brave the cartel wars, people targeting your daughters for human trafficking and prostitution, and corruption all around you - and you were faced with the option of getting on a 4 million deep sometimes decade-long wait list for a visa you probably can't pay for...what would you do?

 

[jnday]

They should clean there own country up, that is what has happened throughout history. When the people gets tired of the BS, they rise up and change it.

 

[DezIrvin]

So you would start fighting the murderous cartels who will no doubt kill you and everyone that you love because they control everything in many parts of the country rather than flee and save your family. That's very noble of you.

 

[Woodson Bible & Guns]

Much better to export the murderous cartels to prey on all those retarded yanquis who are too stupid to send that trash right back. It's hard to blame the Mexicans, really - if my neighbor was happily accepting my trash, I would not pay for having it carried away either.

 

[Sheik]

China is actually our second largest foreign debt holder currently, behind Japan. I think both of them max out at about 7% of our total debt. The largest holder of American debt is America.

Most people speak with nothing more than emotion on immigration. For example I hear alot about how much immigrants cost us, with almost no mention of the things we take for granted that are cheaper because we are able to take advantage of immigrants.

The CBO found that "A bipartisan Senate bill that would create a path to legal status for many of the 11.5 million undocumented immigrants in the United States could reduce deficits by $175 billion over the first 10 years and by at least $700 billion in the second decade." CBO: Immigration bill could cut deficits - Jun. 18, 2013

Many undocumented immigrants don't receive benefits of any kind. There is an issue to be seen in support for naturalized children of illegal immigrants, they end up costing taxpayers a significant amount. But our government views that as an investment - in that someday these hopefully educated children will become contributing tax payers.

If America and Mexico's situations were switched, and your option for your family was brave the cartel wars, people targeting your daughters for human trafficking and prostitution, and corruption all around you - and you were faced with the option of getting on a 4 million deep sometimes decade-long wait list for a visa you probably can't pay for...what would you do?

My point still stands, when we're taking money from other countries and going further in the hole, it's not wise to take on more dependents. Especially illegals.

A lot of the burden on the economy is seen in other areas than government aid, unskilled workers bringing down wages, essentially making what were the low end American wage earners obsolete. Nobody talks about that. Why are they forgotten about in this argument? I hear peopke saying "hey, they do the work nobody else wants to do.". No, they do the work that people don't want to do for free.

 

[Sheik]

Too bad Barack Obama can't run for a third term. He sounds like your kind of president.

Not even close.

 

[Hoofbite]

Illegal immigration is a topic that I have little interest in because nobody is actually going to be able to stop it. You're dealing with people who will do whatever the fuck it takes to get into the country and some of the best solutions people have is to build a wall? A 2,000 mile long wall? Are you serious?

It's a stupid issue and a distractor. While illegal immigration does present problems there isn't a single thing any of these blowhards can do to stop it. Right or Left, anyone who says they have the answer is full of shit.

The funniest part of the issue is the, "they take our jobs", bullshit. That's a great one because the discussion never focuses on punishing people who are giving illegal immigrants these jobs. You want them to stop "taking" (they're not even taking, Americans wouldn't do half of this work in the first place) jobs, then start locking up business owners who employ them.

IMO, it doesn't register as an issue that is all that important and I would say that most people really don't rate the issue as being all that important. Certainly not those great patriotic folk who keep employing the illegals.

You want a real issue, how about the crumbling infrastructure in this country.

 

[DezIrvin]

Your point still stands on 7% debt to China? Debt to anyone? Do you understand how international economics works? That we hold just as much Chinese debt as they hold American? This is not even a consideration (or shouldn't be) in this issue.

You don't hear the rest talked about because it isn't an issue. Certainly no more of an issue than robots taking those jobs. I assume though, that since you are very concerned about that then you are also in favor of raising the federal minimum wage to at least keep up with inflation rather than lagging far behind like it has. Or would then it be an issue that if we raise the minimum wage we are making low cost goods unaffordable for Americans?

I think probably not. Anti-immigration stances are rarely rational, more emotion based. Which is why they are such convenient rallying points for politicians, even when they are one of the smallest issues we face. We don't want them in our country. Tap that, rally the base.

 

[DezIrvin]

Not even close.

Really? Because what he has done for this country on the economy and health care has been nothing short of amazing.

 

[DezIrvin]

Illegal immigration is a topic that I have little interest in because nobody is actually going to be able to stop it. You're dealing with people who will do whatever the fuck it takes to get into the country and some of the best solutions people have is to build a wall? A 2,000 mile long wall? Are you serious?

Yeah. 6,000 have died in smuggling operations. A wall. lol. Is this ancient China? Peoples ideas on dealing with this are similarly outdated.

It's a non-issue. But it's razzle-dazzle the people eat up.

 

[peplaw06]

Your point still stands on 7% debt to China? Debt to anyone? Do you understand how international economics works? That we hold just as much Chinese debt as they hold American? This is not even a consideration (or shouldn't be) in this issue.

So is the national debt just a mirage? Or is this like the Cowboys don't have real salary cap issues and can sign whoever we want thing?

 

[DezIrvin]

What does that have to do with our debt to China? I am just tired of hearing that trope. 7%. They own 7%. We own roughly the same dollar amount of THEIR debt, and it's debt they've defaulted on throughout the years. We own most of our own debt. I don't think the people who spout this stuff are educated about where our debt actually lies, what our money is paying for, or why debt is a good and necessary thing in terms of the global economy. It is much easier to say meaningless things like "we can't pay for immigrants when China has us over a barrel!" Because they don't. And of course we can.

 

[Sheik]

$18 trillion in debt is a good thing.

I've heard it all now.

Look, until the country can take care of it's own people, the poor, the veterans, the ones that can't take care of themselves, every single person that shouldn't be here is taking away from what we could be doing for our own.

Would you pay your neighbors power bill if you couldn't pay yours? No, you'd be a fucking ****** to do so. So why do we do it?

If there's one penny going to any illegal person, it's too much. That includes educating their children.

And to the point about jobs. In the 70s and early 80s, finish carpentry was a respected trade. Guys routinely made $18-$24 an hour. You know what the wage for that type of job is now, at least here? $10-$16 an hour is what I routinely see. You know who has those jobs? Mostly undocumented Hispanics getting paid under the table.

It's easy to stick your fingers in your ears, but it's absolutely true. They're willing to do the work much cheaper. They cram 8-10 people in a rental house or apartment and share the cost of living. It's a different culture, and it's put American people out of work.

I don't know how anyone can not care about shit like that.

 

[DezIrvin]

The issue that you seem to be missing is that we are in absolutely no danger of not being able to pay our bills. You clearly don't understand debt on anything more than a household level, which is why you're all over the place with your argument. China isn't a factor. Us not being able to pay our bills isn't a factor. It's not going to stop and there's nothing a wall or anything else is going to do about it. So maybe stop being a political bobbing head and realize that when Trump and the others make these idiotic claims they are pandering to your base instinct of "this is ours, get out" when none of their solutions are solutions at all. We can't stop immigrants, we need to focus on dealing with them, finding a way to naturalize them and focus on making them contributing members of our society rather than a drain.

Or maybe we can build a time machine and go back and help them stem all the other mass immigrations. Maybe build a wall and keep the Irish out, eh buddy?

I sincerely doubt your completely made up numbers on finish carpentry salaries, mostly because the low end of that rate (18/hr) would put your average finish carpenter at nearly 5 times the national average salary in 1975 and 2.5 times the national salary in 1984. IOW, if your make believe numbers were real and finish carpenters were making 5 times the national average nowadays, they'd be pulling 220k a year on average (ON THE LOW END). Pull the other one. In favor of 15$ an hour minimum wage federally? Since you're so concerned about labor and all...

Even still, who is hiring these immigrants? What are the ramifications of not hiring them? Do you imagine that we can just deport them all and suddenly the problem is over? Build your quaint little wall? Are we doing anything to the employers who hired them? What about the companies getting very real tax credits to ship masses of jobs overseas? I'm not trying to discuss those topics, just demonstrate that there are far larger fish to fry than some Mexicans picking up temp work at the Home Depot. If you are falling for it when the politicians wave that rallying flag in your face, you deserve whatever happens when these self-serving imbeciles take office.

 

[Doomsday]

You want a real issue, how about the crumbling infrastructure in this country.

The "stimulus" was supposed to fix all that. Infrastructure was one of the bell-cows that got it sold. All we had to do was pass it to see that nothing but crony payoffs was in it. And as admitted much later, nothing "shovel ready" at all.

The rest of your post about illegal immigration - sanguine. The one and only thing we can do to maybe put a dent in it is for the economy to completely fail, or I dunno, how about streamlining the process for becoming legal, down to something reasonable like one year instead of the current seven-plus?

Talk of a wall is populist crap. More scary is the talk of cattle rail cars and such you can elicit from these morons if you give them that much conversational rope. Yes, they actually spew that having no idea at all where that puts them historically.

$18 trillion in debt is a good thing.

I've heard it all now.

In superpunk's defense, I'll say what he should have said - most of the "national debt" is monies we owe ourselves, internally - it's a accounting thing - and it is completely unrelated and is separate from, the budget deficit.

 

[peplaw06]

What does that have to do with our debt to China? I am just tired of hearing that trope. 7%. They own 7%. We own roughly the same dollar amount of THEIR debt, and it's debt they've defaulted on throughout the years. We own most of our own debt. I don't think the people who spout this stuff are educated about where our debt actually lies, what our money is paying for, or why debt is a good and necessary thing in terms of the global economy. It is much easier to say meaningless things like "we can't pay for immigrants when China has us over a barrel!" Because they don't. And of course we can.

Well, if China owns 7% of our debt, and we own roughly the same dollar amount of their debt, then it's a wash right? Do we own other countries' debts in the same way as they own ours? And if you own most of your own debt, then you're just paying yourself back... what with interest? Sounds like you're headed down the road that there is really no national debt because we're just paying our debts with their money, or are just paying ourselves back... Making it a mirage?

Somehow I doubt that's the case. But I'm interested in what you're trying to say here. If that's not what you're saying, then maybe elaborate instead of being flippant.