Doomsday

High Plains Drifter
Messages
22,436
Reaction score
5,203
It's bad when you can predict the choke pick, while watching the big game. You know when it's going to come. It's going to come at the worst possible time. And everything that happened before that, other picks, the defense giving up points, none of How We Got Here matters. It never mattered to Roger or Troy. What matters is what Romo does in those situations. He boots it, alot more times than not.
 

Doomsday

High Plains Drifter
Messages
22,436
Reaction score
5,203
I think the defense has let us down more than Romo has. Romo's f'up's tend to be final though, game-enders.
I'll give you that for last year, only. Like the Washington game example I posted before. The defense had given up only 7 points that weren't the result of Romo turnovers in our own end. And many of the important game losses were just like that. The defense played pretty well, but Romo put them in too many compromising situations.
Question for the "Tony is a victim of his surroundings" crowd: If Romo is the QB of the early 1990's teams, do we get to and win three Super Bowls?
I doubt he stays on the team, tell you the truth. I don't think Jimmy puts up with his antics after losses - yuk-yuk with the opposing players after losing. He got rid of Everson Walls for exactly that.

Problem is, we can never know what playing for Jimmy might have done to mold Tony. We can't know what having Norv Turner as QB coach might have done.

Romo isn't 100% a victim of the surroundings.
 

bbgun

Administrator
Messages
15,245
Reaction score
2,489
I laugh when his boosters say "You'll miss him when he's gone." Um, not if he doesn't win anything important (NFC championship or higher). They have a point that he could be succeeded by QBs much much worse (think Carter and Hutch), but I don't share Jerry's attitude that "losses are okay so long as they're exciting!"
 

Sheik

All-Pro
Messages
24,809
Reaction score
5
Question for the "Tony is a victim of his surroundings" crowd: If Romo is the QB of the early 1990's teams, do we get to and win three Super Bowls?

Don't be ridiculous. He'd be like 11 years old.
 

Doomsday

High Plains Drifter
Messages
22,436
Reaction score
5,203
Did we miss Danny White when the 89 Cowboys went 1-15? No, we could see what Jimmy was building here.
 

bbgun

Administrator
Messages
15,245
Reaction score
2,489
Did we miss Danny White when the 89 Cowboys went 1-15? No, we could see what Jimmy was building here.

well, we transitioned from White right to Aikman, whereas Troy was succeeded by an army of fuckups.
 

Sheik

All-Pro
Messages
24,809
Reaction score
5
It's bad when you can predict the choke pick, while watching the big game. You know when it's going to come. It's going to come at the worst possible time. And everything that happened before that, other picks, the defense giving up points, none of How We Got Here matters. It never mattered to Roger or Troy. What matters is what Romo does in those situations. He boots it, alot more times than not.

:lol

Gotta love those odds you're working with though, he either chokes or pulls a rabbit out.

Although, when it comes to the end of a game, I'm right more often than you are if you're expecting him to lose a game with his arm. He wins in those situations far more than he chokes.
 
Messages
10,636
Reaction score
0
Hey guys I was a long time Romo defender. Really I was. I had Lombardis dancing in my head, really thought he was going to take us somewhere. But the cumulative effect of his failures became too much to try to defend, make excuses for, or ignore. The dude is flat out a choker. He is a loser when the chips are down. It's sad to say and yeah, Parcells leaving when he did wasn't the best thing that could have happened to him. But it's been nine years fellas. He's thirty frikkin four. His time is past.

Why did he have the game he did in Washington last year
 
Messages
8,660
Reaction score
0
I'm gonna put the research done by percyhoward from CZ for those of you who didn't see it....

Romo is not the problem here. At all.

__________________________________________________________________________________

Romo has ranked among the league's top 10 rated passers seven consecutive seasons. Since the only QB with more consecutive top 10 seasons in the NFL-- Montana, Fouts, Young, Manning (whose streak continues), and Brady (whose ended last year) -- are all Hall of Famers, people think there must be something misleading about the stat, at least as it applies to Romo. Break down pass rating into its component parts, and you can see that there's nothing mysterious about it. It measures four elements on a per-attempt basis: TD, INT, completions, and yards.

Since 2010, no team has lost more close games than the Cowboys. In this analysis of why Dallas hasn't posted a winning record the last four seasons, those four elements are isolated (along with some others, including two stats involving the QB that aren't a part of pass rating -- sacks and lost fumbles) in the 4th quarter or overtime of the Cowboys' close losses.

in losses (2010 - 2013)
among NFL's top 10 rated passers with 1800+ attempts
4th qtr or OT, score + or - 8 points
(includes playoffs)

First, here they are ranked by pass rating. Again, that's just TD, INT, completions, and yards.
Player...Att/TD%/Int%/YPA/Rtg
Romo ..... 222 / 5.0 / 4.5 / 7.8 / 83.1
Rodgers...136 / 2.2 / 1.5 / 7.0 / 83.1
Roethbgr..136 / 4.4 / 2.9 / 7.0 / 77.9
Brees ......142 / 3.5 / 4.9 / 6.9 / 66.7
Stafford....201 / 3.0 / 3.0 / 5.9 / 63.2
Ryan........196 / 0.5 / 3.6 / 6.1 / 58.8
PManning.. 94 / 3.2 / 7.4 / 6.4 / 57.3
Brady........162 / 3.1 / 4.3 / 5.7 / 56.6
EManning. 116 / 5.2 / 7.8 / 6.8 / 53.2
Rivers...... 232 / 0.4 / 6.5 / 5.9 / 44.7

The first thing you may notice is that their number of pass attempts varies greatly. Some of these players were involved in more losses than others. Since these are all highly-rated QB, most of that difference is explained by the quality of the players around them, or by games missed due to injury.

Romo heads the list, hundredths of a rating point in front of Rodgers. This is traditional passer rating, so sacks and fumbles don't count. They're examples of what someone is talking about when they say "Stats don't tell the whole story." Of course, sacks and fumbles are also stats. They're recorded, they just aren't part of pass rating. So let's count them. Instead of pass attempts, I'll look at total dropbacks. Instead of INT, I'll look at all QB turnovers.

This will be our starting point. Touchdowns vs. turnovers, as a perecentage of all dropbacks. To see the effect of sacks and fumbles, compare Romo's 5.0 TD% above (pass attempts only) to his 4.8 below (pass attempts + sacks), for example. Also compare his 4.5 INT% above to his 5.2 turnover % below. Then, most importantly, look at the differential.

Touchdown Percentage
(the percentage of all dropbacks resulting in TD)
EManning 4.9
Romo 4.8
Roethbrgr 3.9
Brees 3.3
PManning 3.2
Brady 2.9
Stafford 2.8
Rodgers 2.0
Ryan 0.5
Rivers 0.4

Turnover Percentage
(the percentage of all dropbacks resulting in an INT or lost fumble)
Rodgers 1.3
Roethbrgr 3.3
Stafford 3.3
Brady 4.1
Ryan 4.4
Brees 4.7
Romo 5.2
PManning 7.3
EManning 7.3
Rivers 7.5

Differential
Roethbrgr +14.1
Romo +12.8
Rodgers +8.8
Stafford +6.4
EManning +5.1
Brees +4.3
Brady +3.9
PManning -6.8
Ryan -14.1
Rivers -27.2

If I wanted to mislead, I could mention just one of these two categories--either TD or turnovers. You absolutely must look at both of them together. Even better, see the differential.

Although we've all seen the statistic "TD/INT Ratio," TD and turnovers are not equal values, because not all turnovers either cost the offense a touchdown, or result in a touchdown for the opponent. Turnovers have been found to be worth 4 points, while TD are obviously worth 7. Accordingly, I multiply Eli's TD% by 7 and his turnover% by 4, then subtract to get his +5.1 differential.

High touchdown and turnover totals are the sign of a QB who takes more risks (see Eli) in late-and-close situations. Likewise, a QB with fewer turnovers (Rodgers) often has fewer TD as well because he is playing it safe in these situations. (As some have suggested, maybe too safe, when you look at his sack totals in the losses.) Rodgers has avoided late turnovers in close losses, but they're still losses, and the Packers' poor W-L record when trailing late is partly due to his risk aversion (and partly due to his defense, as you'll see later.)

Late in close losses, Romo's TD/TO differential is 2nd best among these top quarterbacks. What this means is that when their team lost a close game, Big Ben and Romo have played relatively well in the 4th quarter with regard to touchdowns and turnovers -- not the only parts of the game, but two big ones.

The next two categories are yards per dropback and sacks, two statistics which you don't see in a passer rating. Since sacks are very often not the fault of the QB, I did not subtract sack yardage from the QB's yardage total, I just counted the sack as a 0-yard completion.

Yards Per Dropback (sacks are counted as pass attempts)
Romo 7.6
Brees 6.5
EManning 6.4
PManning 6.3
Rodgers 6.3
Roethbrgr 6.3
Ryan 5.8
Stafford 5.5
Rivers 5.4
Brady 5.4

Sack Percentage
(the percentage of all dropbacks resulting in a sack)
PManning 2.1
Romo 3.5
Brady 4.7
Brees 5.3
EManning 5.7
Stafford 6.5
Ryan 7.1
Rivers 7.9
Rodgers 10.1
Roethbrgr 10.5

Again, you want your QB to rank in the top half of both of those lists. It's easier to keep your sacks down with short passes and throwaways, but since those count as attempts, your YPA will suffer (see Brady). Romo ranks in the top two of both lists, and is really in a class by himself in the first one. We're still talking late in close losses.

Note that two of the best QB in the TD/TO differential (Roethlisberger and Rodgers) are the bottom two in sacks. Rodgers took only half as many sacks late in close wins (5.3) as in close losses (10.1) the last four seasons. Big Ben's sack percentage was actually higher in their wins. Romo's was about the same in the wins (4.1) as losses (3.5).

If sacks and all turnovers were a part of passer rating, the net effect on Romo's would be positive. And that's late in close losses. Also, if you haven't been keeping track, Romo and Brees are the only players who rank in the top 7 of all the lists we've seen so far.

Plays of 30+ yards as a percentage of total dropbacks
EManning 5.7% (7 of 123)
Romo 4.8% (11 of 230)
Stafford 2.8% (6 of 215)
Rodgers 2.0% (3 of 151)
Ryan 2.0% (4 of 204)
Roethbrgr 1.3% (2 of 152)
Brees 1.3% (2 of 150)
Brady 1.2% (2 of 170)
PManning 1.0% (1 of 96)
Rivers 0.8% (2 of 252)

First Down Percentage
PManning 40.6% (8.36 to go)
Romo 33.5% (9.33 to go)
Brady 33.5% (9.08 to go)
Rodgers 31.8% (8.79 to go)
Roethbrgr 30.3% (9.45 to go)
Brees 30.7% (9.59 to go)
Rivers 29.8% (9.17 to go)
Ryan 27.5% (8.71 to go)
Stafford 25.1% (9.60 to go)
EManning 24.4% (9.28 to go)

Both lists are about yards, whether in large or small chunks. Yards in the 4th quarter or OT of close games that these QB's teams ultimately lost.

The first list explains itself. The second list is about possession -- it's the percentage of pass plays that result in a first down (with the average yards to go on those plays). Again we see the feast-or-famine that is Eli. A ton of big plays, not many first downs. Proving that yes you can have both, only Romo ranks among the top 3 in both lists, which is to be expected from a QB whose yards per play is on another planet.

Peyton's first down percentage dominates, but moving the chains is not his problem in close losses--it's his poor TD/turnover differential and relative lack of big plays. Unlike Romo, his teams don't lose many close games, but also unlike Romo, when they do, the loss is usually on him.

This adjusted rating that follows uses dropbacks instead of attempts, and includes all QB turnovers -- treating lost fumbles as INT.

Player...Dpbk/TD%/TO%/Sk%/YPD/Rtg
Romo ..... 230 / 4.8 / 5.2 / 3.5 / 7.6 / 76.7
Rodgers...151 / 2.0 / 1.3 /10.1/ 6.3 / 75.1
Roethbgr..152 / 3.9 / 3.3 /10.5/ 6.3 / 67.2
Brees ......150 / 3.3 / 4.7 / 5.3 / 6.5 / 63.2
Stafford....215 / 2.8 / 3.3 / 6.5 / 5.5 / 57.2
Ryan........204 / 0.5 / 4.4 / 3.9 / 5.8 / 52.5
PManning.. 96 / 3.2 / 7.3 / 2.1 / 6.3 / 56.2
Brady........170 / 2.9 / 4.1 / 4.7 / 5.4 / 54.0
EManning 123 / 4.9 / 7.3 / 5.7 / 6.4 / 50.3
Rivers...... 252 / 0.4 / 7.5 / 7.9 / 5.4 / 34.7

Even though sacks are listed and do count as attempts, again I did not subtract sack yardage, or else Rodgers would drop back closer to the pack. Anyway, you get the idea. The Dallas pass offense with Romo has clearly been the best in the league in the 4th quarter or OT of close losses.

How is it that the QB with the best numbers late in close losses has a reputation for...losing close games late? Most of it is that the team he plays on loses a lot of close games late -- games that would not be close in the first place if not for the Cowboys' passing game.

Defense - TD% Allowed in Late-and-Close Losses
Ind/Den 12% (26 drives, 3 TD)
Saints 12% (43 drives, 5 TD)
Falcons 16% (50 drives, 8 TD)
Chargers 18% (68 drives, 12 TD)
Steelers 20% (61 drives, 12 TD)
Patriots 24% (33 drives, 8 TD)
Packers 24% (51 drives, 12 TD)
Giants 27% (56 drives, 15 TD)
Lions 28% (72 drives, 20 TD)
Cowboys 30% (64 drives, 19 TD)

Having one of the league's worst defenses means two things: (1) you'll be involved in more close games than other teams (assuming your offense is good enough), and (2) if the game is close in the 4th quarter, you'll be more likely to lose it. None of these defenses has performed worse in late-and-close losses than the Cowboys' defense, and the running game hasn't been any better.

Offense - Rushing First Down Percentage in Late-and-Close Losses
Patriots 31% (55 rushes, 17 fd)
Ind/Den 29% (49 rushes, 14 fd)
Packers 28% (92 rushes, 26 fd)
Falcons 28% (58 rushes, 16 fd)
Chargers 22% (98 rushes, 22 fd)
Giants 22% (55 rushes, 12 fd)
Steelers 21% (71 rushes, 15 fd)
Saints 20% (55 rushes, 11 fd)
Lions 17% (110 rushes, 19 fd)
Cowboys 16% (67 rushes, 11 fd)

The most important run stat late in close games is first down percentage -- how well you move the chains. None of these teams' running games has performed worse in late-and-close losses than the Cowboys' running game. And even though yards per rush attempt is an almost meaningless stat, Dallas ranks 25th in that category late in close losses over the last four seasons, and 28th in lost fumbles.

You hardly ever hear this, but if it weren't for pass offense, this Cowboy team of the last four seasons (2010-13) would easily be the worst in the history of the franchise over a 4-year period. Look back, and you won't come close to finding a worse run offense, pass defense, and run defense over a 4-year stretch since 1960.

All these close-game numbers I've been giving are 4th quarter and OT only. In case you were wondering about Romo's performance in the first three quarters of these losses...

Quarters 1-3 of games lost by 8 points or less, 2010-13
Romo 93.5
Rodgers 91.9
Brady 91.8
Ryan 88.7
Rivers 84.4
Stafford 81.3
Brees 76.8
Roethbrgr 76.2
PManning 71.6
EManning 68.3

Just TD, INT, completions, and yards. This list provides some needed perspective about Brees and Roethlisberger in close losses. While they did play better than most in the 4th quarter, it wasn't enough to make up for their 76 rating in the rest of the game. More often than not, these QB (along with both Mannings) had dug the hole in which their team found itself.

And what about Brady in close losses, with a 91.8 rating through 3 quarters, and a 56.6 in the 4th despite having the best run support of all these QB? That's a collapse. Likewise, Rivers goes from a decent 84.4 through 3 quarters to a 44.7 in the 4th, despite a defense that held the opponent without a TD more often than any other. Ryan's story is similar.

The list also shows how this team has made a real habit of wasting Romo's best games. After all, he does not have the highest 1st-3rd quarter rating in all games--not even top five. Just in the close losses. And when this team loses with Romo, it's usually close. Of the 52 games in which Romo has seen significant action the last four seasons, 44 have either been wins or close losses.

This last one will blow your mind.

When QB Has Pass Rating Between 95-110
(W-L, 2010-13)
Brady 13-2 (.867)
Brees 12-2 (.857)
Roethbrgr 8-2 (.800)
Rodgers 9-3 (.750)
Ryan 10-4 (.714)
PManning 11-5 (.688)
EManning 8-5 (.615)
Stafford 9-8 (.529)
Rivers 6-7 (.462)
Romo 4-10 (.286)

Since 2010, when Romo has a 95-110 rating in a game, the Cowboys are 4-10 (.286).

When these other QB have a 95-110 rating in a game, their teams are 86-38 (.694). And that winning percentage is not what makes those quarterbacks special.

When any other QB in the league besides Romo has a 95-110 rating in a game, those teams are 243-120-2 (.669).

Pause and reflect. Response is optional.



dwmyers, perrykemp, and KJJ all (mostly unintentionally) provided ideas or info used in this post.
 

Doomsday

High Plains Drifter
Messages
22,436
Reaction score
5,203
Gotta love those odds you're working with though, he either chokes or pulls a rabbit out.
But, he doesn't. We're not talking about overall, we're talking about the big games. He chokes almost every time.
He wins in those situations far more than he chokes.
Again you're talking about overall and I am not. I don't give two shits about miracle comebacks in September, or clutch drives in October. I am talking about when the chips are down in big games. He is a huge loser in that situation, very reliable bet for choking..
 

Doomsday

High Plains Drifter
Messages
22,436
Reaction score
5,203
I'm gonna put the research done by percyhoward from CZ for those of you who didn't see it....

Romo is not the problem here. At all.
No one's arguing his OVERALL stats or overall results in overall games. It's about the clutch BIG games.
 

bbgun

Administrator
Messages
15,245
Reaction score
2,489
and he's really great in November!
rolleyes.gif
 

Doomsday

High Plains Drifter
Messages
22,436
Reaction score
5,203
and he's really great in November!
Yeah just awesome.

"When Roger retired, I cried.
When Troy retired, I cried.
When Romo retires, I'll give a cheer." -- Longtime faithful female Cowboys fan.
 
Messages
10,636
Reaction score
0
because the Skins had nothing to play for? remember that hideous INT he threw to get Wash back in the game?

Ok Washington was bored. Ok. Forget the injuries even. Division rival, on the road, week 16 elimination game, walk-off TD, etc.

And whatever pick that was if it wasn't in the 4thQ idc that's all that matters
 

Sheik

All-Pro
Messages
24,809
Reaction score
5
To answer bb's question honestly, I think Tony would flourish in the type of environment Troy was in.

Who knows if we win 3 with Tony? I think on ability alone, I'd say I think it's quite possible. Troy was rarely asked to go out and throw the ball 35-40 times a game, and when he did, you saw some flaws in his game. Troy threw a lot of balls to the other team. He just had really good defenses and a running game that hid his flaws.
 
Messages
8,660
Reaction score
0
I firmly believe Romo is right up there with Aikman and Staubach as far as Cowboys QBs. Straight up, I'm a Romo homer. But he's earned more respect than he gets from most fans.

Staubach and Aikman have that nostalgic advantage because they won Super Bowls. But their teams were stacked with All NFL type talents. Romo has never had that. The talent on the roster from the mid 90s until the present was so bad, Cowboys fans sniffed a few pro bowl type talents and started thinking we really had a shot. 2007 was the best shot, but that wasn't a great team, certainly wasn't a great defense. Jerry has driven expectations so low, any chance at success was blown out of proportion.

Romo has to take risks because the defense can't stop anyone late. They may not have always been the worst defenses in the league, but late in games, they've been awful for years.

Claiming Romo doesn't take losses hard or doesn't learn anything is just completely off base. He may not have been the most vocal leader at times, but dude has tons of heart.
 
Messages
8,660
Reaction score
0
No one's arguing his OVERALL stats or overall results in overall games. It's about the clutch BIG games.
Those stats aren't his overall stats... they're situational stats and show the stigma that he's unclutch or a choker is just confirmation bias.
 
Top Bottom