Annnnnd - The Terrorists win. Belgium irony

[yimyammer]

I've always said that eventually (maybe sooner rather than later) the entire ME and far east will erupt in a nuclear conflagration. It'll be something like, a dirty bomb detonated in Israel, Israel takes this opportunity to nuke Iran, Pakistan decides it's finally a good time to do a pre-emptive strike on India (1000s of years hated enemies they are), India responds accordingly, meanwhile the whole thing erupts in mutually assured destruction.

Unclear to me if the major powers get involved. But it well could be.

And the above happens no matter our level of engagement, and probably happens sooner if we completely disengage.

I cant help but agree, something seems surely to blow up in that region eventually. I hate to be so fatalistic but when you have a huge chunk of folks irrationally motivated by all kinds of extreme views on all sides, I just don't see how there can ever be any give and take that ends in a peaceful solution.

No way in hell the middle east changes its stance on Israel and does anyone think that if other forces or circumstances weren't in play that a good number of folks in the middle east wouldn't hesitate to unleash everything they have on them?

Its a friggin mess and it always has been but now the weapons available are so horrific, the consequences are incredibly scary

 

[Doomsday]

No way in hell the middle east changes its stance on Israel and does anyone think that if other forces or circumstances weren't in play that a good number of folks in the middle east wouldn't hesitate to unleash everything they have on them?

This is why when folks blame the US for these problems, I cringe. It must be incredibly frustrating as an Islamic terrorist not to have your views and motives taken seriously by the societies you terrorize, even after you have explicitly and repeatedly stated them. Even worse, those on the regressive left in their endless capacity for masochism and self-loathing have attempted to shift blame inwardly on themselves, denying the terrorists even the satisfaction of claiming responsibility.

It's like a bad Monty Python sketch:

Terrorist: "We did this because our holy texts exhort us to to do it."

Self Loathers: "No you didn't."

T: "Wait, what? Yes we did..."

SL: "No, this has nothing to do with religion. You guys are just using religion as a front for social and geopolitical reasons."

T: "WHAT!? Did you even read our official statement? We give explicit Quranic justification. This is jihad, a holy crusade against pagans, blasphemers, and disbelievers."

SL: "No, this is definitely not a Muslim thing. You guys are not true Muslims, and you defame a great religion by saying so."

T: "Huh!? Who are you to tell us we're not true Muslims!? Islam is literally at the core of everything we do, and we have implemented the truest most literal and honest interpretation of its founding texts. It is our very reason for being."

SL: "Nope. We created you. We installed a social and economic system that alienates and disenfranchises you, and that's why you did this. We're sorry."

T: "What? Why are you apologizing? We just slaughtered you mercilessly in the streets. We targeted unwitting civilians - disenfranchisement doesn't even enter into it!"

SL: "Listen, it's our fault. We don't blame you for feeling unwelcome and lashing out."

T: "Seriously, stop taking credit for this! We worked really hard to pull this off, and we're not going to let you take it away from us."

SL: "No, we nourished your extremism. We accept full blame."

T: "OMG, how many people do we have to kill around here to finally get our message across?"

 

[peplaw06]

Agreed. I firmly believe the entire world is going down the shitter eventually with a massive war. And it probably can't be stopped. But it's hard to accept that belief, and maybe it's denial that I feel the need to think of ways to prevent it from coming. I guess if it can be delayed, that would be a positive.

You gotta keep on livin. L-I-V-I-N. Otherwise you'll get too depressed to function.

 

[Doomsday]

Agreed. I firmly believe the entire world is going down the shitter eventually with a massive war. And it probably can't be stopped. But it's hard to accept that belief, and maybe it's denial that I feel the need to think of ways to prevent it from coming. I guess if it can be delayed, that would be a positive.

You gotta keep on livin. L-I-V-I-N. Otherwise you'll get too depressed to function.

And hopefully none of us live long enough to see the endgame.

 

[yimyammer]

Agreed. I firmly believe the entire world is going down the shitter eventually with a massive war. And it probably can't be stopped. But it's hard to accept that belief, and maybe it's denial that I feel the need to think of ways to prevent it from coming. I guess if it can be delayed, that would be a positive.

You gotta keep on livin. L-I-V-I-N. Otherwise you'll get too depressed to function.

yep, I'm with you Pep but my hopes for rational dialogue and solutions have been completely dashed by spending too much time on various internet boards where its become painfully obvious that there will always be people that love conflict and drama and will deny rational solutions and thought to their dying breath

 

[yimyammer]

And hopefully none of us live long enough to see the endgame.

one of the perks of getting older?

There is a part of me that looks back over the arc of history and its like the stock market where there have been dips where horrific events occurred across the planet (ex: slavery, the dark ages, etc) but over time things have always improved and life has gotten better for almost everyone.

We now live in a time that is incredible where many people have the quality of life that kings and queens and rulers of the past could never dream about having (speed of travel, abundance of food with little physical effort, the cell phone, central heat and air, the automobile, vaccinations that ended for all intents and purposes deadly diseases like polio, etc, etc).

Despite the endless negative reports in the news, the death rate at birth is at an all-time low (assuming I have been given accurate info), crime and murder in the US has never been lower and even in wars, the death rates are infinitesimal compared to prior wars like WW2 where over 50 million people died (that number is so incredibly large, its hard to fathom it actually occurred).

Maybe AI or some other technological invention can turn out to be a force for good and discover a solution to issues like these where we can see no way out.

The one hope I have is that history has managed to arc in a positive direction where the quality of life has improved so maybe there is a technological hail mary in our future.

Even if our worst fears are realized, virtually everyone has had a life of ease and abundance that would take multiple lives from people of the past to realize. Its like the dog years analogy in that a year of a human today is probably like a million years for a cro magnon man, 500,000 years for a Roman of 10 BC, ??? years for a slave in America in the 1800's. I'd like to see some clever person do the math on this theory, I guarantee whatever the number turns out to be, there has never been a better time to live (obviously exceptions can be found, like being a Cowboy fan).

 

[Doomsday]

Maybe AI or some other technological invention can turn out to be a force for good and discover a solution to issues like these where we can see no way out.

The one hope I have is that history has managed to arc in a positive direction where the quality of life has improved so maybe there is a technological hail mary in our future.

Even if our worst fears are realized, virtually everyone has had a life of ease and abundance that would take multiple lives from people of the past to realize. Its like the dog years analogy in that a year of a human today is probably like a million years for a cro magnon man, 500,000 years for a Roman of 10 BC, ??? years for a slave in America in the 1800's. I'd like to see some clever person do the math on this theory, I guarantee whatever the number turns out to be, there has never been a better time to live

If you haven't, read "The Singularity is Near" by Kurtzweil. He covers this and much much more, in detail.

 

[yimyammer]

If you haven't, read "The Singularity is Near" by Kurtzweil. He covers this and much much more, in detail.

Never heard of it, thx for the tip

 

[Hoofbite]

That's probably the worst thing you can do.

Actually, you can't kill them all. If you kill a huge number of them, peaceful ones just take their place. So even trying is probably the worst thing you can do. Cruz wants to carpet bomb them into oblivion and make the sand glow. Will just bring more and more attacks against us and the rest of the West.

Novel idea... How about we just stop being Team America World Police?

This is how I think the U.S. should go about it.

Just get the fuck out of the Middle East and let them kill each other from now until the end of time.

 

[Doomsday]

Just get the fuck out of the Middle East and let them kill each other from now until the end of time.

Allow the Sunnis and Kurds, and the Jews, to be wiped out by the Shia? Then when they run out of those to slaughter there, they come on over here after the millions of refugees which will result?

They're not going to stay in the ME. They have designs on global domination. "Weeb dem awone" only makes it much worse.

 

[yimyammer]

This is why when folks blame the US for these problems, I cringe. It must be incredibly frustrating as an Islamic terrorist not to have your views and motives taken seriously by the societies you terrorize, even after you have explicitly and repeatedly stated them. Even worse, those on the regressive left in their endless capacity for masochism and self-loathing have attempted to shift blame inwardly on themselves, denying the terrorists even the satisfaction of claiming responsibility.

It's like a bad Monty Python sketch:

Terrorist: "We did this because our holy texts exhort us to to do it."

Self Loathers: "No you didn't."

T: "Wait, what? Yes we did..."

SL: "No, this has nothing to do with religion. You guys are just using religion as a front for social and geopolitical reasons."

T: "WHAT!? Did you even read our official statement? We give explicit Quranic justification. This is jihad, a holy crusade against pagans, blasphemers, and disbelievers."

SL: "No, this is definitely not a Muslim thing. You guys are not true Muslims, and you defame a great religion by saying so."

T: "Huh!? Who are you to tell us we're not true Muslims!? Islam is literally at the core of everything we do, and we have implemented the truest most literal and honest interpretation of its founding texts. It is our very reason for being."

SL: "Nope. We created you. We installed a social and economic system that alienates and disenfranchises you, and that's why you did this. We're sorry."

T: "What? Why are you apologizing? We just slaughtered you mercilessly in the streets. We targeted unwitting civilians - disenfranchisement doesn't even enter into it!"

SL: "Listen, it's our fault. We don't blame you for feeling unwelcome and lashing out."

T: "Seriously, stop taking credit for this! We worked really hard to pull this off, and we're not going to let you take it away from us."

SL: "No, we nourished your extremism. We accept full blame."

T: "OMG, how many people do we have to kill around here to finally get our message across?"

smh:

People like Peter Vandermeersch, the Belgian editor-in-chief of Dutch newspaper NRC-Handelsblad, and Belgian writer David Van Reybrouck, both accomplished intellectuals, argued that Belgium must have done something terrible to deserve this. Their line of reasoning: The terrorists’ fury must be a reaction to their inhumane treatment at the hands of the West.

Source

 

[Hoofbite]

Allow the Sunnis and Kurds, and the Jews, to be wiped out by the Shia? Then when they run out of those to slaughter there, they come on over here after the millions of refugees which will result?

They're not going to stay in the ME. They have designs on global domination. "Weeb dem awone" only makes it much worse.

It's not about "leaving them alone". It's about coming to the realization that you cannot win a war against an ideology. It's a waste of fucking time because every act of suppressing their ideology only serves to validate it's claims and increase it's appeal to the populations who witness such acts.

As for the claim that they would wipe out what amounts to 1/5th of planet (Sunnis are the vast majority, are they not?), somehow I doubt they succeed.

 

[dbair1967]

It's not about "leaving them alone". It's about coming to the realization that you cannot win a war against an ideology. It's a waste of fucking time because every act of suppressing their ideology only serves to validate it's claims and increase it's appeal to the populations who witness such acts.

Actually it 100% validates why all those that swear allegiance to that ideology need to be killed. Their goal is to either convert or kill anyone not like them. They will never change. They will never keep to themselves. Leaving them alone just subjects more and more innocent people to slaughter.

They've got to be dealt with. They are not humans, they are monsters and monsters need to be killed.

 

[Doomsday]

It's not about "leaving them alone". It's about coming to the realization that you cannot win a war against an ideology. It's a waste of fucking time because every act of suppressing their ideology only serves to validate it's claims and increase it's appeal to the populations who witness such acts.

As for the claim that they would wipe out what amounts to 1/5th of planet (Sunnis are the vast majority, are they not?), somehow I doubt they succeed.

There's no "war against a ideology" and never was. That's a copout today just like it was when first uttered.

And hell yes there's no doubt ISIS can and will wipe out the more moderate denominations. Either wipe them out or convert them. Millions however will flee instead, to of course be followed by the Jihad.

You said "just get the fuck out of the middle east" and if that's not weeb dem awone I don't know what is.

 

[Doomsday]

It's about coming to the realization that you cannot win a war against an ideology.

What exactly constitutes a "war against an ideology?" Was the fight against the Nazis not such? Imperial Japan? Just about in fact, every war?

This has a lot in common with both of those ideologies. All three wanted to conquer the world, all three commit genocide, all three won't be stopped by appeasement.

 

[dbair1967]

What exactly constitutes a "war against an ideology?" Was the fight against the Nazis not such? Imperial Japan? Just about in fact, every war?

This has a lot in common with both of those ideologies. All three wanted to conquer the world, all three commit genocide, all three won't be stopped by appeasement.

Yep, 100% correct

 

[Hoofbite]

There's no "war against a ideology" and never was. That's a copout today just like it was when first uttered.

And hell yes there's no doubt ISIS can and will wipe out the more moderate denominations. Either wipe them out or convert them. Millions however will flee instead, to of course be followed by the Jihad.

Not sure how you can suggest this war isn't about an ideology and yet lay out what you think would happen.

This isn't a war against an ideology. They just want to kill or convert anyone who doesn't believe as they do.

You said "just get the fuck out of the middle east" and if that's not weeb dem awone I don't know what is.

Yeah, you get the fuck out of the middle east. Quit wasting time and resources fighting a belief system. If that fits your definition of leaving them alone, then whatever. My statement wasn't pertaining to trying to appease them in hopes that they don't attack. I'm just acknowledging that it's a big fucking waste of time and resources. There's absolutely no way to even measure a victory so what the fuck is the point in playing that game?

 

[Doomsday]

Yeah, you get the fuck out of the middle east. Quit wasting time and resources fighting a belief system. If that fits your definition of leaving them alone, then whatever. My statement wasn't pertaining to trying to appease them in hopes that they don't attack. I'm just acknowledging that it's a big fucking waste of time and resources. There's absolutely no way to even measure a victory so what the fuck is the point in playing that game?

If that's the meter then we should also end the "war on poverty" which has cost trillions and has done, nothing. And no way to even measure a victory.

Here's where it's worth the time and resources - billions of lives are at stake and we are the only country on the planet that can do something.

So, you seem to be saying some engagement is needed? I don't see you saying we should pull support from Israel, for example. You just want all our bases closed, and all American troops and "advisers" out of the ME?

What then, about the 100,000 or so American civilians there in the ME? Need them out too? What about the treaties we have with some of the ME allies? Just toss those, and say "Sorry pal our word is worthless." ??

It's easy to say "just get the hell out of the middle east" but it becomes a bit harder when the degree of getting out is examined for just a minute.

I've already said I like it a lot better when there's no boots on the ground doing the actual fighting. The targeted drone strikes, air strikes and surgical special ops missions are acceptable. I just think we need to strangle them financially and also get back to some good intel gathering.

Just trying to explore the parameters you favor.

 

[Doomsday]

Not sure how you can suggest this war isn't about an ideology

I answered this in the second post. Saying "you can't win a war against a ideology" is a canard, a old chestnut. We're done just exactly that, many times. The Nazi ideology still exists, but has no teeth. Bushido still does too. Fascism? Same deal. We fought these ideologies, and won. Wiped out their ability to do damage.

 

[Hoofbite]

If that's the meter then we should also end the "war on poverty" which has cost trillions and has done, nothing. And no way to even measure a victory.

We can't measure the number of people living in poverty? Even if it's not possible the comparison just doesn't fit. Spending money in an attempt to better the lives of Americans versus spending money to kill some extremists, which will ultimately sway a few more people to the extreme. I'll take the former.

Here's where it's worth the time and resources - billions of lives are at stake and we are the only country on the planet that can do something.

Plenty of counties have capable militaries. At best, the US is the only country willing to fund this indefinite war which is part of the problem. The entirety of the European Union has a larger GDP than the US and yet they collectively spend 1/3rd that the US does on defense. Why should the US be burdened with funding a worldwide problem? It's not like ISIS is using better equipment than any of the EU countries. Shit, most of the stuff they have is just outdated shit that was sold off by the world powers.

So, you seem to be saying some engagement is needed? I don't see you saying we should pull support from Israel, for example. You just want all our bases closed, and all American troops and "advisers" out of the ME?

What then, about the 100,000 or so American civilians there in the ME? Need them out too? What about the treaties we have with some of the ME allies? Just toss those, and say "Sorry pal our word is worthless." ??

George Carlin Beheading - YouTube

Skip to 0:27

Seriously though, is there no middle ground? It's either complete abandonment or waging war? What were things like before 2001? Not a single American lived in the ME?

It's easy to say "just get the hell out of the middle east" but it becomes a bit harder when the degree of getting out is examined for just a minute.

I've already said I like it a lot better when there's no boots on the ground doing the actual fighting. The targeted drone strikes, air strikes and surgical special ops missions are acceptable. I just think we need to strangle them financially and also get back to some good intel gathering.

Just trying to explore the parameters you favor.

The parameter I favor is less US involvement. It's been 15 years now. If this was a winnable war, how long should we expect to wait until it's over?