VTA

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A lot of people might be forced to rethink their opposition to minimum wage hikes, given the consequences of this governments disastrous global trade deals. I'm sure the 1,000+ Carrier AC workers that were just canned due to the companies choice to move to Mexico might find it beneficial to get a quick job for 15.00/hour, as opposed to an even greater downgrade to 8.75.

This what our own government is doing to us, while we argue over the possible benefits/disasters of raising wage rates. A senile socialist with antiquated ideas will only worsen the situation, while Cruz, Rubio and probably Hilary, while she sniffs the air, support the TPP. As disappointed as I am to admit it, Trump is the lone vocal critic of our country's idiot track record on trade deals. God help us.
 

Hoofbite

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A lot of people might be forced to rethink their opposition to minimum wage hikes, given the consequences of this governments disastrous global trade deals. I'm sure the 1,000+ Carrier AC workers that were just canned due to the companies choice to move to Mexico might find it beneficial to get a quick job for 15.00/hour, as opposed to an even greater downgrade to 8.75.

This what our own government is doing to us, while we argue over the possible benefits/disasters of raising wage rates. A senile socialist with antiquated ideas will only worsen the situation, while Cruz, Rubio and probably Hilary, while she sniffs the air, support the TPP. As disappointed as I am to admit it, Trump is the lone vocal critic of our country's idiot track record on trade deals. God help us.

The video of the announcement to the plant was hard to watch.
 

Doomsday

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Who told you this, or where are you getting this from? You've said this before and I can't help but wonder who in the hell is even saying this. Is there a politician or some media person out there propagating this idea?

The "stimulus" only provided $105B for infrastructure over 10 years. It was roughly 12-13% of the total package.

That $105B is the same amount that is estimated would be necessary to fix the nations levees.. The nations bridges need something like another $70B.
You're convoluting the actuals of the deal with what it was SOLD on. It was SOLD that it was the be all end all of the infrastructure problem. Reality was, there was very little earmarked to infrastructure. Watermelon Schemes like Solyndra and others actually got more, all pissed away of course.
 
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The correlation may be there but cause-effect is not established. I don't think it proves or disproves anything. Minimum wage increases could increase cost of living, or perhaps the minimum wage was increased in response to the climbing cost of living.

Do you think the cost of living would stay right where it is now if the minimum wage stays put?

Edit: Was on my phone earlier.

Here's a comparison.

1997:
Minimum Wage: $5.15/Hr
Poverty Threshold: $7,890​

2006:
Minimum Wage: $5.15/Hr
Poverty Threshold: $9,800​

That's a 24% increase in the poverty threshold over a decade without any increase in the minimum wage.
The poverty level is set by the government (Census Bureau) based on a factor of the prices of certain consumer goods, and it's reset annually. There is no mechanism to raise the minimum wage annually. It requires congressional approval. Just because the two don't increase at the same percentage annually doesn't mean there is no cause and effect.

The price of consumer goods and services goes as good old supply and demand goes... as people earn more, they can buy more goods, or the same amount of goods at increased prices, thus increasing the poverty level over time. When minimum wage increases, so do the wages of those who make above the minimum wage. When workers who are more qualified than minimum wage (or entry level) workers see the less qualified's wages increase, they will seek their own wage increases. Then, as employers are required to increase wages (otherwise be faced with losing good employees), then they will increase the cost of their product or service to cover the increased costs of their workforce. Either that, or they'll cut costs by eliminating jobs.

I am a business owner, and you can bet that when I see the minimum wage increase the cost for my services will go up. It may not be an overnight increase like minimum wage is, but as more money is available to consumers, the more they can afford. If I kept the prices at the level they are at now, then the demand for my services will go beyond what I can supply... not to mention that the costs for the things I have to have will increase, so I'll have to have more income to cover the overhead.
 
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The Minimum Wage Debate Should Be About Poverty Not Jobs

http://www.forbes.com/sites/jeffreydorfman/2014/02/22/the-minimum-wage-debate-should-be-about-poverty-not-jobs/#40386d5a4e5c

Jeffrey Dorman, Forbes Contributor
FEB 22, 2014 @ 09:29 AM

This week the debate over raising the minimum wage became a battle of two competing studies. First the White House’s Council of Economic Advisors came out with a briefing that was trumpeted for its claim that we could raise the minimum wage by almost 40 percent (from $7.25 to $10.10 per hour) with no loss in jobs. Then this week the Congressional Budget Office (CBO) released its own, nonpartisan, report which said the proposed minimum raise increase would result in 500,000 fewer jobs.

The policy universe erupted. The White House and its liberal supporters defended their position of no job losses and attacked the CBO. Meanwhile, conservatives gleefully emphasized the CBO’s finding of job losses. All this concentration on whether raising the minimum wage will cause employment to decline or not completely misses the point: both reports make clear raising the minimum wage is a terrible anti-poverty policy.

The CBO report says the possible range of job losses is from a slight negative affect to as much as one million fewer jobs in 2016. Whether the policy leads to a reduction in employment of 0, 500,000, or 1 million jobs does not really matter. Compared to the size of the American labor force (155 million people), these are all small numbers. Besides, nobody thinks the point of raising the minimum wage is to create jobs; the idea is to reduce poverty or, more generally, to provide a living wage to workers. However, both reports make clear that the minimum wage is not a smart way to combat poverty.

According to the CBO report, raising the minimum wage from $7.25 to $10.10 per hour, a nearly 40 percent increase, will only reduce the number of people in poverty by 900,000. This is in spite of the report saying that 16.5 million people will benefit from pay increases. The reality is that only a small minority of minimum wage earners are in poverty now, so increasing the minimum wage cannot lift many out. Instead, a majority of the benefits go to people that are definitely not the examples that President Obama is pointing to in trying to sell his proposal.

In fact, after accounting for both gains in pay and losses from the inflation caused by businesses that will pass on this cost increase to their customers through higher prices the CBO finds that only 19 percent of the benefits go to households in poverty. In contrast, households that earn more than three times the poverty level capture 29 percent of the total gains.

The White House’s numbers are a little more favorable to their case (surprise!), but they still suggest 2 million or so households might be lifted out of poverty at best. I cannot quote an exact figure because the White House report never says specifically. Instead, I had to make some assumptions and estimates from the numbers that they do provide. I suspect that the ambiguity is because they know the truth is not favorable to their case.

The reality is that families in poverty very rarely have a full-time worker in the family; in fact, only 7 percent of the time. The entire bottom 20 percent of income earners (which includes some people above the poverty line) averages only 0.42 earners per household. People are not in poverty because the minimum wage is too low, or because their hourly pay is too low even when they make above the minimum wage. People are in poverty because they are not working or not working enough. They need jobs, not an increase in the minimum wage.

The sympathetic examples that the White House and its supporters will use to sell the proposal will mostly or all be families with kids. Yet households with kids are only 26 percent of those who will gain income from raising the minimum wage. Many of those households are already above the poverty line, so while they may be better off with a higher minimum wage the policy is not lifting families out of poverty.

According to the White House briefing documents, the Earned Income Tax Credit and other government benefit programs have lifted 13 percent of American households out of poverty, meaning the poverty rate is 16 percent instead of 29 percent. That is rather effective anti-poverty policy.

In contrast, the CBO report estimates that raising the minimum wage all the way to $10.10 will lift only 900,000 people out of poverty. That will not even reduce the national poverty rate by 1 percent.

Yet the cost of raising the minimum wage is enormous. Neither report specifies the total dollars involved but based on the number of workers that the White House says are in line to gain from the policy and the hourly pay increases people stand to receive it appears that the President is proposing to redistribute around $100 billion per year from business owners and customers to low wage workers.

If so, the proposal is to spend $100 billion to remove 900,000 people from poverty. That is about $110,000 per person lifted out of poverty. Considering that the poverty line for a family of four is $24,100 and that people who are working must (by definition) already be earning something, any policy that costs more than $6,000 per person lifted out of poverty is quite expensive.

Our current welfare programs spend about $1 trillion per year and are lifting about 40 million Americans out of poverty. That is $25,000 per person, still much too expensive, but a bargain compared to $110,000.

In terms of cost effectiveness, a policy of simply giving money to people in poverty would likely remove ten to fifteen times as many people from poverty as the proposed increase in the minimum wage. For a policy touted as necessary to help poor people earn enough to live on, raising the minimum wage appears to do a particularly poor job at its stated goal.

It would make much more policy sense to increase the Earned Income Tax Credit. Because the amount of the credit is a function of how much you earn and your family size, changes in the EITC can be targeted so that all the money goes to actual workers living in poverty. To reach those who are not working, we would do better to spend money on training, education, relocation subsidies, anything that helps to make them employable.

If government is going to interfere in the labor markets on such a large scale as a 40 percent raise in the minimum wage, potentially redistributing $100 billion, we should expect to get our money’s worth from the policy. Instead, we find that a majority of the income gains go to households already above the poverty line including many already middle class and even upper middle class families.

The CBO estimates a measly 900,000 people will be lifted out of poverty by this policy, a number that could end up being smaller than the eventual loss in jobs. This is certainly good for those 900,000 people, but at an enormous cost.

If the aim is to redistribute income without people noticing because the government role in the process is once removed, raising the minimum wage might be a good choice. However, if the goal is to help workers in or near poverty to earn a better living, the policy fails due to its poor focus and extraordinary cost relative to the reduction in poverty. We can do better by poor workers than this.
 

Doomsday

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There is no mechanism to raise the minimum wage annually. It requires congressional approval.
States as you know, have the right to set their own minimum wages as long as they are higher than the federal minimum. When people talk of "minimum wage" they usually don't know that's the federal minimum for private business, and also that's separate from the federal minimum wage for federal workers. When Obama claims to have raised the minimum wage via executive order, that's for federal employees only. Something they neglect to mention. Legacy served.
 
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I've not really been paying the election too much attention because I'm a dumb apathetic American like most... but I think I might be starting to sour on Trump. I mean, I like that he's not a traditional politician and I think he'd do wonders for our economy, but I also think his act is kind of getting to be too extreme. Maybe I'm old but I find the cussing and calling a fellow candidate a pussy - even if he was just parroting it too much.

That said, I would vote for Hilter before I voted for Hillary.
 

dbair1967

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RIP Antonin Scalia

True champion of the Constitution, solid conservative and a great Supreme Court Justice

Will save the conspiracy theories for another day, but to say this is somewhat fishy would be an understatement.
 

dbair1967

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Not sure there's anything fishy about an 80 year old person passing away.

Hopefully not, but this administration is as crooked as it gets.

Obama got his ass kicked in court a week or so ago and the Supreme Court has several potential cases of extreme importance coming up the rest of this year, some of which were going to be direct rulings on Obama's policies. if Obama were able to get another liberal judge on the panel it'd assure victory for him on a number of key issues.
 

Hoofbite

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Except as Republicans have already said they will, they can drag it out.

If Obama was going to murder a justice, why not do it years ago prior to any of his big Supreme Court issues being heard?

As an aside, Trump angle of saying Cruz is full of shit was strengthened when the moderator called him on his claim that justices aren't appointed in election years.
 

Doomsday

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If Obama was going to murder a justice, why not do it years ago prior to any of his big Supreme Court issues being heard?
Like in "The Pelican Brief."
Not sure there's anything fishy about an 80 year old person passing away.
There's not.

Already heard a appearance of the "elections have consequences" thing though, Fienstien or someone such, used it saying that the 2012 election means Obama gets to appoint justices. Only thing I could think of was, "well, it's cute that you guys and gals like to say that when it suits your narrative, but you always seem to forget ALL elections have consequences, including the 2014 election that gave the GOP control over the Senate, as a further check on Obama."

I think he will wait until he's pretty sure who the nominees are going to be, then will appoint someone who he knows will be highly objectionable to the GOP, hoping their blocking of that nomination will fire up the Dem voting base for the general. Can never let a crisis go to waste and all.
 

Doomsday

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Then again Obama might hold off as long as possible on a nomination, hoping Hillary wins the WH so she can appoint HIM to the SCOTUS. Valerie Jarrett hasn't let him know yet which strategy to use - squelch the many federal investigations of Hillary so the negative press goes away, with the payoff being he gets his SCOTUS appointment? Or, nominate someone SO objectionable there's bound to be a ugly fight over it.
 

Doomsday

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A even better deal might be to simply pardon President-Elect Clinton (assuming she wins the WH) during his lame duck final weeks before her oath of office is taken. With the understanding Hitlery then appoints him to the bench!

Lots of wheels might be turning.
 

dbair1967

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Except as Republicans have already said they will, they can drag it out.

If Obama was going to murder a justice, why not do it years ago prior to any of his big Supreme Court issues being heard?

There is some thought that he could do a "recess appointment", which means he would not need Senate approval. Recess began Friday apparently.

No question if he does this that this kind smells.
 

dbair1967

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A even better deal might be to simply pardon President-Elect Clinton (assuming she wins the WH) during his lame duck final weeks before her oath of office is taken. With the understanding Hitlery then appoints him to the bench!

Lots of wheels might be turning.

I still think Biden might be getting in in place of Hillary, perhaps right at the Dem convention.

I've seen several people offer the opinion that Obama has had thoughts of how he himself could become a Supreme Court Justice, as you suggested in that other post.
 
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I had no idea that Scalia was such a beloved figure among even people who disagreed sharply with him. Sounds like he was a well rounded man who lived a full life.

Still, I'm a little disappointed that he didn't die with a couple of hookers in his bed.
 
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