Hoofbite

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Free speech, free markets, and free trade... How dare he!!

Those are great principles but lets not pretend like their practical applications are as pristine as the ideas themselves. I agree with each of them on a fundamental level.

Even if campaign contributions could actually be called, "free speech", there are plenty of other limitations on free speech that presently exist. In areas where we deem the harm too great, we place limitations on things. Do it all the time. I guess it comes down to whether or not you consider legislative purchasing power too great of a threat. I do. I'm totally in favor of free speech until it begins to undermine the core tenets of democracy. Cash exchanged for legislation shouldn't be a part of the democratic process.

Free markets are great up until we arrive at a point where all the perks the free market and competition are supposed to provide to the consumer are non-existent and all that is left is a perpetual cash extraction. If you want a great example of "free speech" and a "free market" coming together, look no further than the established ISPs purchasing legislation that block or deters municipalities and other companies from laying fiber. You'd struggle to call the internet service market, "free", even without net neutrality. Few choices (in some locations, there are no alternatives) with ISP-controlled distribution of content and ISP-controlled access to content. With net neutrality we still have few choices, but at least the content we have access to isn't determined by our service provider.

As for free trade, I have no problem with it. I do have a problem with the guy saying he supports such a bill based solely on having heard that it, "increases trade". He hasn't seen the bill because nobody has so there's no way anyone can say to what extent and in who's favor this trade will be increased. Of course, if it was ultimately revealed to be bad for the US he could back away from it but rather than withhold his opinion for now, he has to stay in-character as a libertarian and throw his support behind something that he would be expected to support just at face value.

Don't get me wrong, he has some policies I like, but there aren't enough of them that are high on my list.
 
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Those are great principles but lets not pretend like their practical applications are as pristine as the ideas themselves. I agree with each of them on a fundamental level.
If by "practical applications" you mean the government and politicians get involved in them and bastardize what the original principles stand for, then I agree. But the answer isn't to curtail the freedoms. It's to curtail the government.

Even if campaign contributions could actually be called, "free speech", there are plenty of other limitations on free speech that presently exist. In areas where we deem the harm too great, we place limitations on things. Do it all the time. I guess it comes down to whether or not you consider legislative purchasing power too great of a threat. I do. I'm totally in favor of free speech until it begins to undermine the core tenets of democracy. Cash exchanged for legislation shouldn't be a part of the democratic process.
Legislative purchasing power isn't a free speech problem. It's a problem of corrupt government who trade legislative favors for money. Johnson has advocated hard for term limits, saying he believes it's the "silver bullet" to end crony capitalism. I agree with him. When the politicians forget they represent their electorate, and instead focus on how best to keep the DNC or RNC in their back pocket and keep the donors money flowing, we cease to have a representative government, and the whole thing falls apart. Some people think well the government needs to regulate more to fix that... Regulate speech, regulate the markets... Regulation is why we are where we are now. More regulation only perpetuates the problem.

Speech probably the most important right we have... Which is why it is the first amendment. When the government starts telling people how much of their own money they can and can't spend on political speech, we will quickly head down that slippery slope to revisiting sedition acts.

Free markets are great up until we arrive at a point where all the perks the free market and competition are supposed to provide to the consumer are non-existent and all that is left is a perpetual cash extraction. If you want a great example of "free speech" and a "free market" coming together, look no further than the established ISPs purchasing legislation that block or deters municipalities and other companies from laying fiber. You'd struggle to call the internet service market, "free", even without net neutrality. Few choices (in some locations, there are no alternatives) with ISP-controlled distribution of content and ISP-controlled access to content. With net neutrality we still have few choices, but at least the content we have access to isn't determined by our service provider.
Again, purchasing any legislation, whether literally or figuratively, is a government problem, not a free speech or free market problem.

As for free trade, I have no problem with it. I do have a problem with the guy saying he supports such a bill based solely on having heard that it, "increases trade". He hasn't seen the bill because nobody has so there's no way anyone can say to what extent and in who's favor this trade will be increased. Of course, if it was ultimately revealed to be bad for the US he could back away from it but rather than withhold his opinion for now, he has to stay in-character as a libertarian and throw his support behind something that he would be expected to support just at face value.
So wait a minute... You don't like that Johnson supports a bill "nobody has read." Does it bother you that Hillary or Trump don't support a bill "nobody has read?"

My guess is if Johnson admitted he hasn't seen the bill he didn't categorically state he supported it. My guess is that he said generally he's for any agreements that promote free trade. He's not one to shoot off on things he's not educated about, unlike the other two who will make any outlandish claim if they think it's what people want to hear.

Don't get me wrong, he has some policies I like, but there aren't enough of them that are high on my list.
There are some policies of his I don't like... But the two primary alternatives are so distasteful I stomach it. Plus, as he's stated many times... He's not running for King or Dictator. He's not realistically going to be able to do everything he would like to do. He has to go through Congress to do most of his work. And if things like TPP are not passed by Congress, he's not going to be able to implement it.
 
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bbgun

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Cs2xKgWWIAAy7HJ.jpg

ted.gif
 

dbair1967

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Not that one, Drudge had the one up from the other day at some rally. The next day she canceled a fundraiser without any explanation.
 

Hoofbite

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If by "practical applications" you mean the government and politicians get involved in them and bastardize what the original principles stand for, then I agree. But the answer isn't to curtail the freedoms. It's to curtail the government.

Legislative purchasing power isn't a free speech problem. It's a problem of corrupt government who trade legislative favors for money. Johnson has advocated hard for term limits, saying he believes it's the "silver bullet" to end crony capitalism. I agree with him. When the politicians forget they represent their electorate, and instead focus on how best to keep the DNC or RNC in their back pocket and keep the donors money flowing, we cease to have a representative government, and the whole thing falls apart. Some people think well the government needs to regulate more to fix that... Regulate speech, regulate the markets... Regulation is why we are where we are now. More regulation only perpetuates the problem.

Term limits does nothing in regards to limitless anonymous donations. It may prevent people from making a career out of being a corrupt politician but that's about it. It could also turn a marathon into a sprint to the finish in that these corrupt politicians now have limited time to sell their support.

I think it's pretty obviously that if you want to keep reps out of the back pockets of corporations that you need to remove the incentive. Giving them less time to sell out doesn't remove the incentive, but preventing them from selling out does.

Speech probably the most important right we have... Which is why it is the first amendment. When the government starts telling people how much of their own money they can and can't spend on political speech, we will quickly head down that slippery slope to revisiting sedition acts.

The government already tells people how much they can donate. Limits are already in place on an individual level and we aren't currently revisiting the sedition acts, are we? Pretty sure I've heard Johnson say he's okay with limitless contributions so long as they are tagged with 100% transparency. What if I don't want people to know who I have donated to? Don't I have that right?

Again, the bottom line is that we give as much freedom as we possibly can while living in reality, and then we place limitations on things that are deemed to be more harmful to society as a whole than good.

Again, purchasing any legislation, whether literally or figuratively, is a government problem, not a free speech or free market problem.

Then we'll disagree. As there are two parties involved in the transaction, I think it's fair to say it's a problem on both ends. Whether you're buying or selling legislation with excessive contributions, you're still pissing on the foundation that a democracy was built on. You can assign blame solely to the government but if someone is operating with the understanding that their money will benefit them, then we're arguing the difference between implicit and explicit contributions. Explicit contributions (bribes) are not okay as far as I know, but implicit contributions are?

Would you be okay with bribes?

So wait a minute... You don't like that Johnson supports a bill "nobody has read." Does it bother you that Hillary or Trump don't support a bill "nobody has read?"

Depends on their reasoning. I have no clue as to the rationale that either has given because I don't give a fuck about either. They have both demonstrated beyond a shadow of a doubt that they are not fit to be president, and I wouldn't trust either of them to actually honor any statement that they made.

As for politicians in general, if they don't support it because they don't have access to it then that's reasonable. If they don't support it based on some fucked up principle, that's not reasonable. Not any more reasonable than supporting it based on some fucked up principle without having ever seen it.

My guess is if Johnson admitted he hasn't seen the bill he didn't categorically state he supported it. My guess is that he said generally he's for any agreements that promote free trade. He's not one to shoot off on things he's not educated about, unlike the other two who will make any outlandish claim if they think it's what people want to hear.

There are some policies of his I don't like... But the two primary alternatives are so distasteful I stomach it. Plus, as he's stated many times... He's not running for King or Dictator. He's not realistically going to be able to do everything he would like to do. He has to go through Congress to do most of his work. And if things like TPP are not passed by Congress, he's not going to be able to implement it.

And he could have made such a distinctions. "I'm generally in favor of free trade, but I have not seen the bill so I can neither support nor oppose the bill". I get it. He's not Trump and he's not Hillary. I also just don't believe that the free market can solve all the problems the county faces because the fixed market we currently have is largely part of the problem, and I think his policies would just allow things to be more fixed.
 

Hoofbite

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Just saw that Trump is all for stop and frisk on a nationwide basis.

Don King may be the only minority that supports him before this is all said and done.
 

theoneandonly

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Between Trump, Hillary and Cruz I find it almost impossible fiqure out who I dislike the most. It is like a photo finish that is too close to call. Every one of em turns my stomach in their own special way.
 

dbair1967

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Between Trump, Hillary and Cruz I find it almost impossible fiqure out who I dislike the most. It is like a photo finish that is too close to call. Every one of em turns my stomach in their own special way.

Then you must be a ******
 

Hoofbite

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Ted Cruz endorses Donald Trump.

Meh. Still don't like the guy.

After all the shit Trump spout about Cruz, this tells you all you need to know about Cruz. Not that he hadn't already revealed himself to be a complete political tool, but this just shows he has absolutely zero self respect. Guy breaks out a birther attack on you, implicates your father in the assassination of JFK, mocks the way your wife looks, and then you endorse him?

Been a while since I've seen a man hand his nuts over to another person like this. May as well hand Trump a hall pass to fuck his wife, mother, and sister while he's at it.
 

junk

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Anybody that isnt happy with Trump when compared to Hillary is a ******.

Hillary is terrible but Trump is equally as terrible. I have no idea which will be worse. I think the only saving grace is that they are both so shitty that whoever wins will be a 1 term president

I'm not sure what anyone finds appealing about Hillary but I'm equally amazed anyone can find anything appealing about Trump.

No matter who wins, we all lose.
 

dbair1967

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Hillary is terrible but Trump is equally as terrible. I have no idea which will be worse. I think the only saving grace is that they are both so shitty that whoever wins will be a 1 term president

I'm not sure what anyone finds appealing about Hillary but I'm equally amazed anyone can find anything appealing about Trump.

No matter who wins, we all lose.

Trump wont destroy the country, Hildakunt will finish Obumma's great work of decimating the USA.
 

dbair1967

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LOL ok

Trump's a huge liar and should be fact checked, but don't ask us any questions about Benghazi, Emails, Clinton Foundation, rigging the dem primary, medical stuff or anything else that might shine a light on the fact that Hildahag is the biggest slime ball piece of shit to ever run for office here.

“This is the role of the moderator … to call out those lies, and do it in real time,” Clinton communications director Jennifer Palmieri told reporters on a conference call. “To not do that is to give Donald Trump a very unfair advantage. Any candidate who tells this many lies clearly can’t win the debate on the merits.”

“His level of lying is unprecedented in American politics,” Palmieri said of Trump.
 

Sheik

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Has anyone come across a liberal that is willing to say a bad thing about their party?

Doug Schoen is probably the only liberal I've ever heard tell the truth.
 
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