Gil Brandt becomes Cowboys' 17th Hall of Famer

[eromeopolk]

, Brandt gets credit for drafting Aikman now?

Again, go back and look at some draft history. His drafting from 78-87 was absolutely atrocious, and he wasted dozens upon dozens of picks.

You must be young young Cowboys fan. Everybody over 20 years old knows that Tom Landry, and Gil Brandt had dinner with Troy Aikman during the Cotton Bowl week and he sealed his no.1 draft choice with that Cotton Bowl performance. Troy Aikman was the consensus no.1 overall choice by Tom Landry, Gil Brandt, and Tex Schramm. The year prior after drafting Irvin, Schramm said now the Cowboys can return to the land of the living. Gil Brandt drafted Irvin and Aikman. His drafts where from 1960-1989.

If you read my post, I explained what happen to those drafts 78-87 (mainly injuries and not bust).

Go look it up for yourself. Also, from 78-87 (the years you chose) the Cowboys went to 3 NFC Championship games, was 1st or 2nd in the East 7 times, and made the playoffs 7 out of 10 years. The bad years was 1986-1988 for Landry. But Brandt still loaded up with the players we named...Aikman, Martin, Norton, Newton, Tolbert, Johnston, Irvin, Gogan, and Walker who you could not trade to the Vikings unless Gil Brandt drafted him.

You are just wrong, wrong and then wrong again.

 

[dbair1967]

The Hogeboom era got off to a great start against the Rams in '84. Laser passes all over the field. Not sure what his problem was (reading defenses?), but he couldn't sustain it.

It's called a "fluke"

 

[dbair1967]

You must be young young Cowboys fan. Everybody over 20 years old knows that Tom Landry, and Gil Brandt had dinner with Troy Aikman during the Cotton Bowl week and he sealed his no.1 draft choice with that Cotton Bowl performance. Troy Aikman was the consensus no.1 overall choice by Tom Landry, Gil Brandt, and Tex Schramm. The year prior after drafting Irvin, Schramm said now the Cowboys can return to the land of the living. Gil Brandt drafted Irvin and Aikman. His drafts where from 1960-1989.

If you read my post, I explained what happen to those drafts 78-87 (mainly injuries and not bust).

Go look it up for yourself. Also, from 78-87 (the years you chose) the Cowboys went to 3 NFC Championship games, was 1st or 2nd in the East 7 times, and made the playoffs 7 out of 10 years. The bad years was 1986-1988 for Landry. But Brandt still loaded up with the players we named...Aikman, Martin, Norton, Newton, Tolbert, Johnston, Irvin, Gogan, and Walker who you could not trade to the Vikings unless Gil Brandt drafted him.

You are just wrong, wrong and then wrong again.

asshat, no I'm not some young Cowboy fan. I started watching the team in 1975.

Gil Brandt had nothing whatsoever to do with players Jimmy drafted in 1989. Jimmy made every fucking decision with this team while he was here. Landry, Brandt and Schramm had absolutely nothing to do with Jimmy deciding to draft Aikman. This is not about what THEY would have done. This is about what JIMMY did. He decided on his own to pick Aikman, just like all the other players we picked in the rest of that draft, and 1990, 1991, 1992 and 1993. Brandt most certainly did not pick players for Jimmy in 1989.

Brandt's drafts were utter garbage from 1978-1987, and I did the player by player research and posted it here for all to see. I'll find the thread, repost the thing in its entirety for you dipshits to see. Brandt was awesome and helped build an incredible juggernaut, but he is also one of the chief reasons the team collapsed in the 80's.

They made the NFC Champ game in 1980, 1981, and 1982. After that they never sniffed another playoff win under Landry and instead racked up over half a decade of countless embarrassing defeats.

 

[dbair1967]

1978: 12 picks, best pick was Todd Christensen and he didn't do anything here. Only player from that drfat that amounted to anything for us was 11th rd pick Dennis Thurman.

1979: 15 picks, with top pick Robert Shaw undone by knee injuries, only Doug Cosbie and Ron Springs really panned out of this draft.

1980: 11 picks (no 1st or 2nd rd) Kurt Petersen was a decent player, but also undone by injuries. 2nd team all pro during 1982 season but then went downhill. Timmy Newsome and Gary Hogeboom only other notable picks.

1981: 14 picks..Howard Richards...inconsistent player, also injury prone. 7th rd pick Ron Fellows was probably the best pick.

1982: 16 picks, including the infamous 1st on Rod Hill. Not a single quality player in the draft

1983: 12 picks, used a 1st on Jim Jeffcoat who was a good player, but passed on Dan Marino. No other quality picks. 2nd rounder Mike Walter ended up playing for the other team (literally and figuratively) and was a decent starter for Niners.

1984: Had 18 picks. Billy Cannon career ruined with injury. 6th pick Eugene Lockhart was best player picked. Other notables: Victor Scott, Steve DeOssie, Steve Pelleur, and Olympian Carl Lewis

1985: 15 picks, 4th rd pick Crawford Ker was a decent starter for a few yrs at OL, this of course was the draft that netted us Herschel Walker in the 5th as well. No other quality players drafted.

1986: 14 picks. Top pick Mike Sherrard appeared to be the real deal, but multiple broken legs ruined him and he ended up a waste (as it turns out, him getting us injured did in part help us get Michael Irvin in 1988. We might not have drafted Irvin had Sherrard stayed healthy). Not one other player of any decency drafted.

1987: 12 picks, top pick Danny Noonan was never a difference maker but was a decent starter. They did draft Kelvin Martin and Kevin Gogan, who ended up quality players.

1988: The only really good draft Brandt had after the last super bowl winner (1977). Michael Irvin #1, Ken Norton #2 and late rd pick (11th rd) DT Chad Hennings ended up being a major steal.

The above is the recipe for how to ruin a franchise. Super dud 1st rd picks like Kevin Bethea, Rodd Hill and Kevin Brooks. Danny Noonan was an early 1st rd pick JAG.

 

[bbgun]

1985: 15 picks, 4th rd pick Crawford Ker was a decent starter for a few yrs at OL, this of course was the draft that netted us Herschel Walker in the 5th as well. No other quality players drafted.

if only San Fran hadn't traded up

 

[MrB]

asshat, no I'm not some young Cowboy fan. I started watching the team in 1975.

Gil Brandt had nothing whatsoever to do with players Jimmy drafted in 1989. Jimmy made every fucking decision with this team while he was here. Landry, Brandt and Schramm had absolutely nothing to do with Jimmy deciding to draft Aikman. This is not about what THEY would have done. This is about what JIMMY did. He decided on his own to pick Aikman, just like all the other players we picked in the rest of that draft, and 1990, 1991, 1992 and 1993. Brandt most certainly did not pick players for Jimmy in 1989.

Brandt's drafts were utter garbage from 1978-1987, and I did the player by player research and posted it here for all to see. I'll find the thread, repost the thing in its entirety for you dipshits to see. Brandt was awesome and helped build an incredible juggernaut, but he is also one of the chief reasons the team collapsed in the 80's.

They made the NFC Champ game in 1980, 1981, and 1982. After that they never sniffed another playoff win under Landry and instead racked up over half a decade of countless embarrassing defeats.

This topic has nothing to do with what Jimmy did. Everyone knows he drafted great. You just seem to have some vendetta against Gil Brandt and refuse to admit that he brought some really great contributors to the Cowboys in the late 80’s and if Jerry had not bought the team he would have drafted Aikman. What Jimmy did or would have done is irrelevant to this topic. This is strictly about Gil Brandt. If you want to start a Jimmy cock sucking thread then go ahead, but in this one we’re talking about Gil and regardless if you agree or not HE WAS GOING TO DRAFT AIKMAN! Gil was the GM and brought in players by other means than just the draft and I’ve pointed out to you that several of those players are ones that were major contributors to those 90’s Super Bowl teams. You can deny it all you want, no one gives a fuck because the fact remains that Gil Brandt deserves the credit he is finally getting.

 

[dbair1967]

This topic has nothing to do with what Jimmy did. Everyone knows he drafted great. You just seem to have some vendetta against Gil Brandt and refuse to admit that he brought some really great contributors to the Cowboys in the late 80’s and if Jerry had not bought the team he would have drafted Aikman. What Jimmy did or would have done is irrelevant to this topic. This is strictly about Gil Brandt. If you want to start a Jimmy cock sucking thread then go ahead, but in this one we’re talking about Gil and regardless if you agree or not HE WAS GOING TO DRAFT AIKMAN! Gil was the GM and brought in players by other means than just the draft and I’ve pointed out to you that several of those players are ones that were major contributors to those 90’s Super Bowl teams. You can deny it all you want, no one gives a fuck because the fact remains that Gil Brandt deserves the credit he is finally getting.

I don't have any vendetta against Brandt. He deserves oodles of props for what he did to build our great franchise, just like Landry.

I just don't have a problem also noting the guy sucked ass the latter part of his career, and was a big reason the team collapsed.

Gil was long overdue to be in the HoF. Had he built the Stealers, Dolphins or Niners team he'd have been in a long time ago. Many other Cowboys are in the exact same boat, should be there but are not.

And last time goober, Gil Brandt gets no credit whatsoever for anything after Jimmy Johnson took over.

 

[ravidubey]

Sure you could blame all of Dallas' talent decline in the 1980's on head scout Brandt, but in reality it took a lot of factors to cause the decline.

Mike Sherrard pick in 1986, Billy Cannon Jr in 1984, and Robert Shaw in 1979 were fine and promising players lost to career-threatening and career-ending injuries.

In 1980, we traded away our top picks to get John Dutton to extend our talent window on defense, so you can't blame Brandt for that. Sure indirectly the failure of Larry Bethea may have driven the trade, but the net story was there was no high draft pick.

1983's Jim Jeffcoat was fine, though overshadowed by Dan Marino falling to the second to last pick.

Herschel Walker in the later rounds in 1985 was flat out brilliant.

So it comes down to 1978 selecting Larry Bethea, an addict who was out of the league in a few years, 1981's selection of average Howard Richards as a knee-jerk response to missing Bobby Butler, Kevin Brooks in 1985 as another reaction to missing out on Jerry Rice, Danny Noonan in 1987, and the ultimate screw up drafting Rod Hill in 1982.

Hill was a true "computer" selection, and proof that college production beats measurables every time.

I remember the Noonan pick, and he had been highly touted by a number of draft publications. Some players, like Noonan, Brooks, and probably Richards are just busts.

 

[Dodger12]

I didn't know this thread had devolved but with everyone's sensitivities today, it's not surprising. Gil was great and deserved to be in the HoF much sooner. But there's a reason we were 1 and 15 in 89 and sucked balls leading up to that season. The magic was gone and the league had caught up. Brandt survived the 80's living off his reputation but dbair is right (?) in that we just didn't draft very well. We can point out a few names over the previous 8 years or so but that doesn't make up for the utter failures. Gil couldn't replace the aging stars, just as Jerry couldn't in the mid to late 90's. That usually tends to get someone fired unless, of course, you're Jerry Jones and own the team.

 

[dbair1967]

I didn't know this thread had devolved but with everyone's sensitivities today, it's not surprising. Gil was great and deserved to be in the HoF much sooner. But there's a reason we were 1 and 15 in 89 and sucked balls leading up to that season. The magic was gone and the league had caught up. Brandt survived the 80's living off his reputation but dbair is right (?) in that we just didn't draft very well. We can point out a few names over the previous 8 years or so but that doesn't make up for the utter failures. Gil couldn't replace the aging stars, just as Jerry couldn't in the mid to late 90's. That usually tends to get someone fired unless, of course, you're Jerry Jones and own the team.

Somebody that finally gets it.

 

[eromeopolk]

Jeffcoast. good player and great leader for long time. Certainly was one of Brandt's better picks from 78 on.

Of course we took him instead of Dan Marino, and rode out the rest of the 80's with rag arm Danny White, flub Hogeboom and flub Pelluer.

You're wrong again. Danny White did not hurt his wrist until the 1986 season. The prior year the made the playoffs and won the NFC East 1985. So after the trade with Indy felled through for Elway which involved trading White, their most pressing need was DE with Harvey Martin gone.

Jeffcoat was the 1983 draft. From 1983-1985 the Cowboys made the playoffs 2 of 3 years with no losing seasons. Danny White was the QB.

Because johnny come lately fans are use to mediocrity to below average Cowboys under Jerry Jones Dumbo GM (1995-2003, 2007 to present), they forget that Tom Landry, Gil Brandt, and Tex Schramm only had 3 years of losing seasons after the expansion years. That was 1986-1988. Jerry Jones went 5-11 three years in a row which was far worst than those three years in the 80's. So Gil Brandt was not as bad as you think from 78-89.

Also, Jimmy Johnson had already had discussions with Tex and Gil to replace Landry in 1988 (see them draft Irvin). Jerry Jones only moved the timetable up because he also knew Jimmy. That's why Jimmy had total control as he already had relationship with Gil Brandt, Bob Ackles (who he took with him to Miami), and John Wooten (Cowboys Director of Pro Personnel).

 

[dbair1967]

Dude there's no sense arguing with you, you can't debate with stupid.

I don't need you to recite we made the playoffs with White in 83 or 85. The fact is he was a rag arm QB with a tendency for bad plays. Landry knew as much, which is why they flirted with Hogeboom, who was pretty much lousy. Brandt missed the boat on adding Marino, just like he missed the boat in 1979 with Montana. In the end it worked out, because we got Aikman in 1989 and won 3 championships, but the team was worse for the majority of the 80's because we had inferior QB play on a team with quickly declining talent.

And no, I didn't forget Landry's record. It was epic good and the run we had was historic. But this team wasn't even remotely competitive in the postseason in 83 or 85 and pretty much got trampled by Philly and Washington in 80 and 82.

And thanks for finally agreeing on the obvious, that Jimmy had total control and made all the decisions from the day he was hired. As a complete boob, you were denying that earlier.

 

[bbgun]

Another "black" mark on his record is the fact that the draft (from 1976 to 1992) was 12 rounds, which gave him many more opportunities to unearth hidden gems and improve the team. But he didn't find nearly enough difference makers. Would've been even uglier had he not taken a flyer on Walker. Conversely, the Niners drafted far below us for most of the 1980s and still cleaned up draft-wise.

 

[eromeopolk]

Dude there's no sense arguing with you, you can't debate with stupid.

I don't need you to recite we made the playoffs with White in 83 or 85. The fact is he was a rag arm QB with a tendency for bad plays. Landry knew as much, which is why they flirted with Hogeboom, who was pretty much lousy. Brandt missed the boat on adding Marino, just like he missed the boat in 1979 with Montana. In the end it worked out, because we got Aikman in 1989 and won 3 championships, but the team was worse for the majority of the 80's because we had inferior QB play on a team with quickly declining talent.

And no, I didn't forget Landry's record. It was epic good and the run we had was historic. But this team wasn't even remotely competitive in the postseason in 83 or 85 and pretty much got trampled by Philly and Washington in 80 and 82.

And thanks for finally agreeing on the obvious, that Jimmy had total control and made all the decisions from the day he was hired. As a complete boob, you were denying that earlier.

Yes you can debate stupid. That's why I am giving you facts. He that knows not and knows that he knows not is ignorant; teach him. But he that knows not and knows not that he knows not is a fool; shun him.

You can not say you were not competitive when you make the playoffs 2 of 3 years and win the NFC East Division 1983-85. The Cowboys went to three straight NFC Championship games 1980-82. So your point as a whole is not based on facts. The Cowboys went 7-9, 7-9, and 3-13 from 1986-88. 1990 the Cowboys were 7-9 again one win from the playoffs with 2 games to play. However Aikman was hurt against Philly and the Cowboys had Babe Laufenburg at QB the last 2 games of the 1990 season thats why they finished 7-9.

I know exactly why the 80's drafts had issues. I told you it was not all poor selections as you state. The biggest problem was injuries to premium round selections. Gil Brandt also had problems with Landry getting more involved in personnel selections which resulted in some bad picks (Mike Walters LB fastest back pedal time...Duh) and not playing picks Rod Hill, went on to be a CFL All Star and 2 time Grey Cup Champion, and Reggie Collier, better than Randall Cunningham out of college (Bear Bryant said he was the best QB he ever faced). So Tex brought in Bob Ackles and reorganized the Pro Personnel department putting John Wooten with more control and input to move Landry out of draft decisions and get Gil Brandt from drafting Rod Hill and Jeff Rohrer risky small college talent with premium drafted with round picks. Robert Shaw, Mike Sherrad, Billy Cannon Jr., Jesse Peen, and Howard Richards all had career ending injuries and were 1st and 2nd round draft picks.

Jimmy Johnson had respect for Brandt, Ackles (hired as VP of Personnel for Johnson's Dolphins), and Wooten. Jerry hated that Johnson was building a silo with these men that would not allow him to be involved in actual personnel decisions from the beginning. He fired Brandt after the 1989 draft, Ackles and Wooten after the 1992 draft, and Jimmy after the 1993 draft. I never said Jimmy Johnson did not have input in the 1989 draft. But if you know anything about the NFL draft, the NFL draft combine, scout reports and initial scout player rankings, college all star bowl games, and some pro days had already been completed by the time Jerry Jones had fired Tom Landry on 2-25-1989. That is 2 months before the NFL Draft. The only thing Jimmy Johnson could do was give his input on the type of players he wanted and have himself and coaches give input on players already on the Cowboys draft player rankings. He had already developed relationships with Brandt, Ackles, and Wooten scouting his Miami Players like Micheal Irvin.

In regard to how fixed Aikman was as the no.1 draft pick by the Cowboys with or without Jimmy Johnson, Jimmy Johnson kept Jerry Rhome on the Cowboys staff in 1989 who scouted and already had a relationship with Aikman. Rhome played his college football in OK and Aikman played his college football in OK. Rhome was drafted by the Dallas Cowboys and Aikman was going to be drafted by the Dallas Cowboys. Rhome was hired by Landry specifically to groom Aikman.

Gil Brandt said the following:

So convinced, I met Troy on the field after UCLA beat Arkansas in the 1989 Cotton Bowl Classic in Dallas, where he was named MVP, and told him he would be our choice with the top pick in the draft.

Of course, everything changed the following month when the Cowboys were sold to Jerry Jones. Tex Schramm and I stayed on through the draft but ultimately the choice of who would be taken with the top pick was up to the new regime installed two months before the April draft.

If there were any questions about Aikman, they should have been erased after a private pre-draft workout at UCLA in which new head coach Jimmy Johnson, offensive coordinator Dave Shula, quarterbacks coach Jerry Rhome and myself attended (I bought lunch). To this day, it was the single best individual workout by a quarterback I have ever seen. He must have thrown 100 passes, not one of them uncatchable.

"If we would have had him in Miami, we would have gone undefeated," Jimmy remarked to me on our flight back to Dallas, referring to his final season with the Hurricanes in which he won the national title with one loss. "And we would have won every game by 50 points."

"I rest my case," I replied.

So giving Jimmy Johnson credit for the obvious is not genuine. The 1989 draft was another Gil Brandt draft.

This is my last try to teach he that knows not and knows that he knows not. Or, are you he that knows not and knows not that he knows not?