Dez's contract situation may turn ugly

[Midswat]

It's sad they Bryant and his side couldn't be more farsighted and recognize that less money in the short run would have yielded a higher quality of teammates with a better possibility of championships and even more money in the future.

That would be a horrible gamble for any individual player to take. And don't give me an NBA comparison. That's a league where one player alone could get you to the finals. Far less intangibles.

In the NFL, you hear all the time how hard it is to get to the SB, let alone win. You're dealing with far more players, a higher dependence on depth, coaching, weather, who you play and when you play them, etc etc etc. Most of that stuff is basically irrelevant in the NBA.

And that isn't even taking into consideration the constant threat of career ending or otherwise serious injuries, non guaranteed contracts, etc.

Oh and don't NBA players make a ridiculously significant amount more money than those in the NFL???

God you should apologize to the forum for that thought.

 

[peplaw06]

Again not even arguing the original point, which was NOT money value. That's why it is a red herring, as you should well know. It's a common tactic.

The whole topic was value... you can't have a discussion about value without money being a part of it.

You moved the topic off Dez when you made an ignorant statement about facts not devaluing ANYONE, and you were proven wrong.

It's a fact that actions can have consequences, and the fact of the action can create consequences, but it does not follow that ALL facts devalue or create any other consequence.

I never said ALL facts devalue or create any other consequence. I think all facts have some varying impact on value. Some add value, some devalue.

But the fact that Dallas has had other 1000 yard WRs and that they will have other WRs who get 1000 yards after Dez is gone, devalues him. Any statement that makes it seem like Dez should not be paid at a premium devalues him, because he's an elite WR and should be paid at a premium. And don't get me wrong, some statements that devalue him have merit. But that's not the point. The point has been that you have tried to devalue him and denied doing it.

 

[Bob Sacamano]

If you don't know what a strawman is, I doubt you know what a red herring is.

Geez. Why don't you just give her the trophy?

 

[Statman]

But the fact that Dallas has had other 1000 yard WRs and that they will have other WRs who get 1000 yards after Dez is gone, devalues him. Any statement that makes it seem like Dez should not be paid at a premium devalues him, because he's an elite WR and should be paid at a premium. And don't get me wrong, some statements that devalue him have merit. But that's not the point. The point has been that you have tried to devalue him and denied doing it.

But the fact that Dallas has.........

Any statement that makes it seem......

You've labeled this statement as fact yourself, and you determined that this fact devalues Dez Bryant.

I mean, this whole "devalue" thing is mostly semantics isn't it? In your eyes, any criticism as to why Bryant shouldn't be paid a "premium" contract is devaluing him. Why is it not simply placing a different value on him than what you believe?

You seem to want to go strictly by Bryant's numbers, his stats. Of course you understand that I place great value on productivity but there are other considerations. Some have to do with Bryant and some don't, they are a more general part of the Cowboys overall plans, a policy they believe in, based on prior experiences.



The Cowboys aren't going to pay anybody at a premium, why should they? If the offensive line was a good enough reason not to pay a premium to DeMarco Murray, then why would they pay the max to Bryant?

The Cowboys have the #1 ranked QB in the league protected by a wall of young Pro Bowlers. They'll go find them a Laurent Robinson or two, if they aren't already here. Then they'll just go from there.

They don't want to do that. I certainly realize they are a better team with Dez and I want him, but this isn't just about this season, this is about many seasons to come. The Cowboys are tired of the type of contract that can keep them in cap hell for a long time in the event of poor performance or some issue.

Every negative aspect, true or perceived, is being considered, you better believe it. These NFL guys, Jones included, isn't going to throw a 100 million dollars at a guy that has had off field issues, whether they were legally guilty or not.

Other Cowboy receivers did quite well in the games that really count, the playoffs. Bryant totaled 6 catches for 86 yards and no TD's. Cole Beasley had more catches, more yards. Terrance scored three TD's on 4 receptions for 130 yards, almost 50 more yards than Bryant.

Shouldn't an elite receiver perform at an elite level in the most important games? Michael Irvin never caught less than 4 passes in his first six playoff games, his lowest yardage was 82 yards. You don't think he was double teamed?

 

[peplaw06]

You've labeled this statement as fact yourself, and you determined that this fact devalues Dez Bryant.

Do you disagree that it devalues him?

I mean, this whole "devalue" thing is mostly semantics isn't it? In your eyes, any criticism as to why Bryant shouldn't be paid a "premium" contract is devaluing him. Why is it not simply placing a different value on him than what you believe?

If by semantics you mean that NoShame said people were devaluing Dez when they were actually devaluing Dez, then I guess. And yes, any criticism of him... especially after the season he had where everyone thought he was one of, if not the, best WRs in the game... devalues him. I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with devaluing him... As I've said, all teams go through this in negotiations. They have to determine what they value him at, and weigh the pros and cons.

But if you're gonna devalue him, fucking own up to it. Don't play this Pollyanna "Who me?" routine, when what you're doing is apparent to everyone.

You seem to want to go strictly by Bryant's numbers, his stats. Of course you understand that I place great value on productivity but there are other considerations. Some have to do with Bryant and some don't, they are a more general part of the Cowboys overall plans, a policy they believe in, based on prior experiences.

Nowhere have I stated or even implied that we have to go strictly by Bryant's numbers. I place value on productivity, and I place value on intangibles, which Dez has a high number of intangibles that other WRs on this roster don't have. I place value on myriad things.

The Cowboys aren't going to pay anybody at a premium, why should they? If the offensive line was a good enough reason not to pay a premium to DeMarco Murray, then why would they pay the max to Bryant?

The Cowboys aren't averse to paying players at a premium. I'm not saying the absolute highest price, I'm saying a price that's worthy of elite players at their position.

The Cowboys have the #1 ranked QB in the league protected by a wall of young Pro Bowlers. They'll go find them a Laurent Robinson or two, if they aren't already here. Then they'll just go from there.

Or they could find them a Miles Austin, or a Roy Williams.

They don't want to do that. I certainly realize they are a better team with Dez and I want him, but this isn't just about this season, this is about many seasons to come. The Cowboys are tired of the type of contract that can keep them in cap hell for a long time in the event of poor performance or some issue.

And there's nothing wrong with that... I don't want a crippling contract here either. But don't act like if he leaves that we're just gonna move on and not miss a beat. That's fucking stupid. How many WRs has this team had that can do what Bryant can? We went through all these scrub WRs after Irvin was gone... Romo has never had a guy like this who can make spectacular plays out of questionable throws. We want Romo to have the opportunity to win a Super Bowl in the small window he has left... you have to give him talent to do it with.

Every negative aspect, true or perceived, is being considered, you better believe it. These NFL guys, Jones included, isn't going to throw a 100 million dollars at a guy that has had off field issues, whether they were legally guilty or not.

No question the negatives are being considered. I never said otherwise.

Other Cowboy receivers did quite well in the games that really count, the playoffs. Bryant totaled 6 catches for 86 yards and no TD's. Cole Beasley had more catches, more yards. Terrance scored three TD's on 4 receptions for 130 yards, almost 50 more yards than Bryant.

Oh, now do you want to strictly by the numbers of the other WRs? Do you think maybe the coverage that was focused on Dez helps to open areas for these other WRs to work? It's not all about stats... Statman.

Shouldn't an elite receiver perform at an elite level in the most important games? Michael Irvin never caught less than 4 passes in his first six playoff games, his lowest yardage was 82 yards. You don't think he was double teamed?

So you're going to argue that Dez isn't an elite WR? Oh boy... this ought to be good.

 

[Statman]

Define "Elite"....

I think that the majority of Cowboy fans , old and new, are so removed from when the Cowboys used to be considered an "elite" team that they have forgotten what the word really means in terms of NFL football players.

I'll put it this way:

If you are trying to convince someone that a player is elite by citing their regular season stats....then they are not elite.

Elite players might produce stats but it's their plays in those games.....in The Game.....that we remember.

Elite players are not only the best, they are the best of the best because they make the plays that determine championships, the plays that make history.

Jerry Rice, Michael Irvin, Fred Belitnikof, Lynn Swan, Andre Reed, Hines Ward, Art Monk, Paul Warfield, Randy Moss, Cris Carter, ....these are the elite.

Dez Bryant? He is one of many physically gifted receivers of this decade. There is a new guy just like him that comes out of college every other year.....Calvin Johnson, Julio Jones, Odell Beckham, etc, etc.

Quick, what is the play that immediately comes to mind when you think of Dez Bryant, the play that all fans remember, not just the Cowboys?

I remember Super Bowl 27 when the Cowboys had generated almost no offense halfway through the 2nd quarter. They were ahead only because of two interceptions and a fumble recovered by the defense in the endzone. But Michael Irvin scored two TD's within 15 seconds and the route was on. I remember the way he dived for that endzone.

Elite players are catalysts. Elite players are consistent.

How many times has Dez Bryant had consecutive 100 yards games? What is his longest string of consecutive 100 yard games?

The answer to the first question is once. Obviously that means that the answer to the 2nd question is 2.

In 1995 Michael Irvin had seven consecutive hundred yard games. He had 11 hundred yard games in the first 13 weeks of that season.

With 5 minutes or less in the game and the Cowboys down by a TD or less, how many total TD passes did Dez Bryant have in games the Cowboys ultimately won?

Larry Fitzgerald had 4. Calvin Johnson had 3. So did Jason Witten, by the way. Martellus Bennet and Danny Amendola had two. Dez Bryant had one, same as Terrance Williams, DeMarco Murray, Cole Beasley, and Kevin Ogletree.

Dez Bryant is big, strong, fast, and very gifted. He relies on his athleticism but he is not a cerebral player, he is not a student of the game. He is out of position often. Drew Pearson studied football like he was in Law School. It was said that he ran routes and made cuts like a surgeon, at precise inches on the field. Staubach always knew where he would be.

Dez Bryant may be an elite WR in the NFL someday. However, he is not an elite WR today, just a very very good one, the Cowboys best weapon, but one of many. They won't be better without him than with him, but they will still be a good team and better then they were last year. It would be a shame for Dez to discover this on the way out. He should sign the tender and have an elite season ending in significant contributions to playoff success.

 

[LAZARUS_LOGAN]

The Cowboys aren't going to pay anybody at a premium, why should they? If the offensive line was a good enough reason not to pay a premium to DeMarco Murray, then why would they pay the max to Bryant?

Apples and oranges. As quiet as it is kept, Dez made the Oline's job much easier. Because of his presence, Murray was not facing nearly as many 8-men fronts, that he will likely face with the Eagles because they lacks a WR or playmaker of Dez's caliber. This is one of the intangibles that I believe peplaw is referring to, and it is what makes Dez highly valuable.

Now you being a stat guy, check these stats. There were 7 WRs that had more receptions and yards than Dez, whereas Dez led all WRs and players period for the regular season in TDs with 16. Those WRs are Brown (Steelers), Thomas (Broncos), Jones (Falcons), Nelson (Pacers), Sanders (Broncos), Hilton (Colts), and Tate (Lions). But what makes Dez's numbers all the more impressive is that none of those Wrs listed ahead of him, did not have an RB that received nearly 400 carries. In fact, none of those WRs had an RB that had over 300 carries. Murray had more had a 100 more carries than the nearest RB (Bell --- Steelers). The point to all of this is, that just imagine if out of the 392 carries that Murray had, 50 or even a 100, of them were taken away, and were assigned to the WRs and TEs, with Dez likely getting the most of that. You being the stat guy you probably could extrapolate Dez's numbers.

And one more thing. There was one other WR, who was in the same situation as Dez, and basically had just as good of numbers. Somehow he's gotten lost in the shuffle and no one is talking about him: Jeremy Maclin. Take a look at his numbers, they nearly mirror Dez's save the TDs. But he also had an RB that had over 300 carries. And everyone acts as it's no big deal in them losing Maclin.

 

[Iamtdg]

Here are the cliff notes..


Doomsday: Dez bad.

pep: Oh my f'ing god is Doomsday a moron!

Hey, peckerface, I was in this dust up, too.

 

[Midswat]

Define "Elite"....

Anyone on Dezs level.

 

[ThoughtExperiment]

If you are trying to convince someone that a player is elite by citing their regular season stats....then they are not elite.

Elite players might produce stats but it's their plays in those games.....in The Game.....that we remember.

Elite players are not only the best, they are the best of the best because they make the plays that determine championships, the plays that make history.

Jerry Rice, Michael Irvin, Fred Belitnikof, Lynn Swan, Andre Reed, Hines Ward, Art Monk, Paul Warfield, Randy Moss, Cris Carter, ....these are the elite.

So Calvin isn't elite but Hines Ward is? Dez isn't but Art Fucking Monk is?

I guess Timmy Smith was elite but Adrian Peterson isn't.

Is Statman a Dooms alt?

 

[cmd34]

Hey, peckerface, I was in this dust up, too.

Fine.

Doomsday: Dez bad. Anyone catch ball.

Pep: I'm a fancy lawyer. Words and stuff.

Third best poster from DCC: Mom, mom, mom, mom? Mummy... Momm. Pay attention to meeeeeeee.
[video]https://youtu.be/cNkp4QF3we8[/video]

 

[peplaw06]

So you're trolling right?

If you define elite as "making the plays that determine championships," then the eilte WRs in the game right now are who? Mike Wallace... Is David Tyree still in the league? I guess that eliminates Calvin Johnson, Julio Jones, Larry Fitzgerald, Demaryius Thomas, etc.

And I guess in the list of elite CBs you have to say Malcolm Butler is elite?

Quick, what is the play that immediately comes to mind when you think of Dez Bryant, the play that all fans remember, not just the Cowboys?

Too many to name. Green Bay catch that wasn't. Houston acrobatics. Catch he made to win the game against NYG where his finger came down on the line. Of course, I'm a fan of the simple hitch route where he threw the Philly CB off of him and ran 50 yards for the TD... plays like that where he's a threat to house anything that comes his way.

And since I guess you're so tied up in stats... how about these...

Dez has 56 receiving TDs in his career, which has been 5 seasons. He's 9 TDs behind Irvin, who played 12 seasons, and 15 behind Hayes who has the franchise record, and played 10 years. Dez will obliterate that record if he stays healthy and in Dallas. Hell, he could pass it this year.

Dez AVERAGES more than 1,000 yards a season, 1084.8 to be precise. Irvin averaged 992. Witten averages 875.

Dez averages 76 catches a year. Witten averages 78. Irvin averaged 62.

Look at that last one. Dez averages as many catches per season as Romo's long-time security blanket. Witten's about to catch his 1000th ball this next season or two. And Dez is just one TD behind Witten... 57-56.

In fact, out of the top 8 Cowboys pass-catchers all time, only one has played less than 10 seasons... guess who?

 

[Midswat]

Remember that game where our opponent literally lined up two corners 5 yards off of Dez at the LOS?

Teams do that a lot for just good receivers.

 

[Iamtdg]

Fine.

Doomsday: Dez bad. Anyone catch ball.

Pep: I'm a fancy lawyer. Words and stuff.

Third best poster from DCC: Mom, mom, mom, mom? Mummy... Momm. Pay attention to meeeeeeee.
[video]https://youtu.be/cNkp4QF3we8[/video]

Asshole.

 

[yimyammer]

Looks like a guy flipping everyone off over a hot cauldron

 

[Statman]

Apples and oranges. As quiet as it is kept, Dez made the Oline's job much easier. Because of his presence, Murray was not facing nearly as many 8-men fronts, that he will likely face with the Eagles because they lacks a WR or playmaker of Dez's caliber. This is one of the intangibles that I believe peplaw is referring to, and it is what makes Dez highly valuable.

Now you being a stat guy, check these stats. There were 7 WRs that had more receptions and yards than Dez, whereas Dez led all WRs and players period for the regular season in TDs with 16. Those WRs are Brown (Steelers), Thomas (Broncos), Jones (Falcons), Nelson (Pacers), Sanders (Broncos), Hilton (Colts), and Tate (Lions). But what makes Dez's numbers all the more impressive is that none of those Wrs listed ahead of him, did not have an RB that received nearly 400 carries. In fact, none of those WRs had an RB that had over 300 carries. Murray had more had a 100 more carries than the nearest RB (Bell --- Steelers). The point to all of this is, that just imagine if out of the 392 carries that Murray had, 50 or even a 100, of them were taken away, and were assigned to the WRs and TEs, with Dez likely getting the most of that. You being the stat guy you probably could extrapolate Dez's numbers.

And one more thing. There was one other WR, who was in the same situation as Dez, and basically had just as good of numbers. Somehow he's gotten lost in the shuffle and no one is talking about him: Jeremy Maclin. Take a look at his numbers, they nearly mirror Dez's save the TDs. But he also had an RB that had over 300 carries. And everyone acts as it's no big deal in them losing Maclin.

All right, cool. Now we are having a real Dallas Cowboy fan debate. You looked at some typical stats and came to the conclusion that Dez's numbers alone should classify him as an elite receiver.

But let's dig a little deeper to see who was making things easier for who:

Dez had 16 TD passes last season, impressive looking. How did he score these TD's? Under what circumstances?

4 of the 16 TD's were scored on a 1st and ten.

When opponents are playing the Cowboys when they are running the ball so successfully, do you think their first priority is going to be controlling the passing game on 1st and ten? Not when they are handing the ball off to Murray on first downs an average of 16 times a game while he averages 5 yards an attempt, I guarantee you that. When Murray carried the ball on 1st down, the next play averaged 2nd and 5. No defense wants to be under those circumstances all game long, they are keying on Murray.

5 of the Dez's TD's were 5 yards or less at the opponent goal line. Three of those were on 1st and goal, another was 2nd and goal.

Again, the defense is thinking "Gosh, with the most productive RB in the league this season, I'm sure they are going to pass"??? I can see it on 3rd down but DeMarco scored at the goal line 8 times last year, 5 of them on 1st down, none on 3rd down.

Dez caught his first pass in the first 8 minutes of the 1st quarter 6 times. In 5 games he caught his 1st pass in the 2nd quarter. Against the Cardinals he caught his first pass in the last two minutes of the 4th quarter.

Murray averaged 6 carries for 25 yards per game before Dez caught his first pass. The ground game had been established in almost every case. Dez was making things easier for the RB's and O-linemen? No.

They are not talking about Maclin because he isn't elite, he's in the same category as Dez, he was a big name receiver in 2009 along with Michael Crabtree who also has similar numbers to Dez. Can they all be elite?

Those other receivers may have had more opportunities than Dez Bryant but they certainly didn't have opponents that were far more concerned about stopping the run.

What about the big games last season. How elite did Dez perform in the most important games?

Against the Seahawks he caught 4 balls for 29 yards. He caught one in the 2nd half.

Against the Cardinals he caught two passes, both with less than two minutes to play in the 4th quarter.

In the first playoff game against the Lions, Dez fumbled his first catch. His 2nd catch came with less than 6 minutes left in the 1st half. He caught one pass in the 2nd half for 3 yards.

Meanwhile, the "other" WR, Terrance Williams also has 3 receptions, but for 96 yards and 2 TD's

In the 2nd playoff game against the Packers Dez caught his 1st pass with less than 5 minutes to go in the 1st half, his 2nd pass halfway through the 3rd quarter, his last catch was halfway through the 4th quarter.

In the playoffs both Cole Beasley and Terrance Williams has more yards, Terrance has 3 TD's to Bryant's 0.

Michael Irvin played his best games against the best defenders. In the 1994 NFC championship game he was covered by Dieon Sanders and he had 12 catches for 192 yards and 2 TD's. If the referee didn't have his head up his butt, he would have caught Sanders holding on the play that could have won the game.

In two regular season games against Rod Woodsen and the Steelers, Irvin caught 8 passes for over 130 yards on both occasions.

Michael Irvin was an elite WR.

 

[DezIrvin]

It's weird that you would kind of discount dez's tds because other teams are looking run and then in the next breath cite a WR who played with the greatest running back of all time. Some tortured logic up in here.

 

[LAZARUS_LOGAN]

It's weird that you would kind of discount dez's tds because other teams are looking run and then in the next breath cite a WR who played with the greatest running back of all time. Some tortured logic up in here.

You beat me to it. A guy names 'statman' accusing another person of using stats.

 

[peplaw06]

Some people go back and see 2 catches for 15 yards against the Cardinals on Dez's stat sheet and say he sucked for that game.

Some people watch games... and stuff... and remember that Brandon Weeden was throwing the ball that game.

 

[LAZARUS_LOGAN]

All right, cool. Now we are having a real Dallas Cowboy fan debate. You looked at some typical stats and came to the conclusion that Dez's numbers alone should classify him as an elite receiver.

But let's dig a little deeper to see who was making things easier for who:

Dez had 16 TD passes last season, impressive looking. How did he score these TD's? Under what circumstances?

Being that he led the league in TDs amongst all players including RBs, it's more than "looks impressive".

4 of the 16 TD's were scored on a 1st and ten.

When opponents are playing the Cowboys when they are running the ball so successfully, do you think their first priority is going to be controlling the passing game on 1st and ten? Not when they are handing the ball off to Murray on first downs an average of 16 times a game while he averages 5 yards an attempt, I guarantee you that. When Murray carried the ball on 1st down, the next play averaged 2nd and 5. No defense wants to be under those circumstances all game long, they are keying on Murray.

WHO GIVES A FUCK. If his TD catches came on 1st and 10. Any DC worth a damn will account for Dez in any and all scenarios, unless he's on the sidelines. Maybe, just maybe Dez is just that good.

In won't bother with the rest, because it's just pure foolishness.