- Thread starter Woodson Bible & Guns
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Pretty sure we're getting killed in some of these trade agreements pep
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Which, is by design. It's about global wealth redistribution.
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Yep, agree 100%
peplaw06
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How so?
This is the third time I've asked you how we're getting killed, or how it's a disaster, or to give something to back that up. If you are so confident we're getting killed, then it should be easy for you to explain.
I don't just accept things as true because Trump says them. I would bet you don't either. So tell me why you think what you think.
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It's probably going to have something to do with this, year after year.
US Current Account Trade Deficit Hits $484.1 Billion in 2015 - ABC News
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Google can be your friend too Pep.
That said, I think its been fairly common knowledge about our trade deficits for quite some time.
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Here's another one: http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-china-factbox-idUSTRE7450UC20110506
Factbox: Key issues in China-U.S. trade
Senior U.S. and Chinese officials will grapple with the vast and sometimes contentious relationship between the world's two biggest economies in two days of talks in Washington D.C. from Monday.
Here is an explanation of the issues that may be discussed at the latest annual Strategic and Economic Dialogue.
U.S. TRADE DEFICIT, CHINA'S SURPLUS
A key cause of friction is the U.S. trade deficit with China. Despite a pledge by both countries to work together to overcome global imbalances, the U.S. trade deficit with China in 2010 rose to $273.1 billion, up 20.4 percent from 2009.
That surpassed the record of $268 billion set in 2008, illustrating how heavily China still relies on exports to the United States to fuel economic growth.
CURRENCY
China's currency policies have long been a major irritant in ties and a focus of U.S. congressional anger since at least 2005, though it has cooled a bit as an issue more recently.
Many U.S. lawmakers believe the yuan is undervalued by 15-40 percent, giving Chinese exporters an unfair price.
China loosened its currency from a nearly two-year peg to the dollar last June, and this year has guided the yuan to record highs. It has now appreciated about 5 percent since June, and 1.5 percent since the start of this year.
Beijing has made clear it will deploy the currency as a weapon to fight inflation, which hit a 32-month high of 5.4 percent in March.
U.S. Treasury Secretary Timothy Geithner said on May 3 that though the yuan is rising more rapidly it needs to move even faster toward a market-driven exchange rate.
The U.S. Treasury has delayed issuing a semi-annual report on the currency practices of U.S. trade partners that, in theory, could have labeled China a foreign exchange manipulator. It is likely the Obama administration will opt for continued behind-the-scenes persuasion but avoid harsher actions such as saying that China deliberately keeps the yuan undervalued to gain a trade edge.
However, the Obama administration faces continued calls from Congress to do more to pressure China.
After a trip to China in late April, Senator Charles Schumer, a prominent Democrat from New York, said he was "more convinced than ever" of the need to pass legislation to force China to raise the value of the yuan.
U.S. DEBT LEVELS
China's has the world's biggest foreign exchange reserves at just over $3 trillion.
About two-thirds are estimated to be invested in dollars. Beijing has repeatedly nudged Washington to give assurances about government debt levels and the strength of the dollar.
After Standard & Poor's slapped a negative outlook on the U.S. credit rating in April, China urged Washington to protect investors in its debt.
China has little choice but to keep its dollar-denominated debt for now, and that deters the government from voicing any worries about U.S. fiscal policy more loudly.
With the Chinese government determined to limit the yuan appreciation, it must buy a large amount of the dollars streaming into the country from its trade surplus and recycle those into U.S. investments.
PIRACY AND COUNTERFEITING
China has long faced American companies' ire about widespread unauthorized copying of software, music, films and other products, from luxury goods to industrial machinery.
The International Intellectual Property Alliance, which represents U.S. copyright industry groups, has estimated U.S. trade losses in China due to piracy at $3.5 billion in 2009. U.S. customs officials say 80 percent of the fake tennis shoes, clothing, luxury bags and other goods they seize each year at the border come from China.
China says it is making progress against intellectual property piracy and launched many enforcement campaigns to stamp out bootlegged books, music, DVDs and software but all are openly available. China remains on the U.S. "priority watch list" of countries deemed to have serious copyright and trademark theft.
Microsoft and other members of the Business Software Alliance in the United States complain that nearly 80 percent of the software installed on personal computers in China is pirated. They was a deal to boost U.S. software sales and exports to China by 50 percent in two years.
INDIGENOUS INNOVATION
Big U.S. companies like General Electric are worried that China's industry support "indigenous innovation" policies could make it more difficult for them to compete in China. This refers to regulations to promote innovation within China and reduce dependence on foreign technology and companies.
U.S. industry fears China is using discriminatory policies in areas from government procurement to technical standards and tax policy to promote state-owned enterprises at the expense of foreign firms.
U.S. companies also worry that under indigenous innovation, they may be forced to transfer development and ownership of intellectual property to China to participate in the country's huge government procurement market.
President Hu Jintao and other Chinese leaders have indicated goods produced by Chinese affiliates of U.S. and other foreign firms would be considered indigenous innovation products. But the Obama administration and U.S. businesses say they want stronger follow-up from Beijing to ensure that commitment is kept.
RARE EARTHS
China, which controls 97 percent of the world's rare earth supplies, has alarmed its trading partners by restricting exports of the minerals which are used in a variety of clean energy and high-industry technologies.
The U.S. Chamber of Commerce has pressed the United States to secure a commitment from China to remove rare earth export taxes and quotas, and the United Steelworkers union also raised concern about the issue.
China has defended the restrictions as measures to manage supplies and control pollution associated with rare earth production. USTR officials have said they are looking at what action they can take, and note they have challenged other Chinese export restrictions at the WTO.
U.S. EXPORT CONTROLS, INVESTMENT BARRIERS
Beijing complains that Washington, while pushing for greater access for U.S. firms in the Chinese market, imposes unwarranted restrictions on Chinese investment in the United States, often citing national security concerns. China says it wants a level playing field for its investment into the United States.
China says it would buy more from the United States if not for overly restrictive U.S. controls on high-technology goods. The United States says China's argument is overstated. But it is in the process of reforming its export control system, which could lead to increased sales of some less-sensitive items.
Experts say better Chinese protection of U.S. intellectual property is a prerequisite for any major easing of export controls. Without that, say analysts, U.S. tech exports will taper off as Chinese firms copy the products.
(Reporting by Chris Buckley, Editing by Jonathan Thatcher
Factbox: Key issues in China-U.S. trade
Senior U.S. and Chinese officials will grapple with the vast and sometimes contentious relationship between the world's two biggest economies in two days of talks in Washington D.C. from Monday.
Here is an explanation of the issues that may be discussed at the latest annual Strategic and Economic Dialogue.
U.S. TRADE DEFICIT, CHINA'S SURPLUS
A key cause of friction is the U.S. trade deficit with China. Despite a pledge by both countries to work together to overcome global imbalances, the U.S. trade deficit with China in 2010 rose to $273.1 billion, up 20.4 percent from 2009.
That surpassed the record of $268 billion set in 2008, illustrating how heavily China still relies on exports to the United States to fuel economic growth.
CURRENCY
China's currency policies have long been a major irritant in ties and a focus of U.S. congressional anger since at least 2005, though it has cooled a bit as an issue more recently.
Many U.S. lawmakers believe the yuan is undervalued by 15-40 percent, giving Chinese exporters an unfair price.
China loosened its currency from a nearly two-year peg to the dollar last June, and this year has guided the yuan to record highs. It has now appreciated about 5 percent since June, and 1.5 percent since the start of this year.
Beijing has made clear it will deploy the currency as a weapon to fight inflation, which hit a 32-month high of 5.4 percent in March.
U.S. Treasury Secretary Timothy Geithner said on May 3 that though the yuan is rising more rapidly it needs to move even faster toward a market-driven exchange rate.
The U.S. Treasury has delayed issuing a semi-annual report on the currency practices of U.S. trade partners that, in theory, could have labeled China a foreign exchange manipulator. It is likely the Obama administration will opt for continued behind-the-scenes persuasion but avoid harsher actions such as saying that China deliberately keeps the yuan undervalued to gain a trade edge.
However, the Obama administration faces continued calls from Congress to do more to pressure China.
After a trip to China in late April, Senator Charles Schumer, a prominent Democrat from New York, said he was "more convinced than ever" of the need to pass legislation to force China to raise the value of the yuan.
U.S. DEBT LEVELS
China's has the world's biggest foreign exchange reserves at just over $3 trillion.
About two-thirds are estimated to be invested in dollars. Beijing has repeatedly nudged Washington to give assurances about government debt levels and the strength of the dollar.
After Standard & Poor's slapped a negative outlook on the U.S. credit rating in April, China urged Washington to protect investors in its debt.
China has little choice but to keep its dollar-denominated debt for now, and that deters the government from voicing any worries about U.S. fiscal policy more loudly.
With the Chinese government determined to limit the yuan appreciation, it must buy a large amount of the dollars streaming into the country from its trade surplus and recycle those into U.S. investments.
PIRACY AND COUNTERFEITING
China has long faced American companies' ire about widespread unauthorized copying of software, music, films and other products, from luxury goods to industrial machinery.
The International Intellectual Property Alliance, which represents U.S. copyright industry groups, has estimated U.S. trade losses in China due to piracy at $3.5 billion in 2009. U.S. customs officials say 80 percent of the fake tennis shoes, clothing, luxury bags and other goods they seize each year at the border come from China.
China says it is making progress against intellectual property piracy and launched many enforcement campaigns to stamp out bootlegged books, music, DVDs and software but all are openly available. China remains on the U.S. "priority watch list" of countries deemed to have serious copyright and trademark theft.
Microsoft and other members of the Business Software Alliance in the United States complain that nearly 80 percent of the software installed on personal computers in China is pirated. They was a deal to boost U.S. software sales and exports to China by 50 percent in two years.
INDIGENOUS INNOVATION
Big U.S. companies like General Electric are worried that China's industry support "indigenous innovation" policies could make it more difficult for them to compete in China. This refers to regulations to promote innovation within China and reduce dependence on foreign technology and companies.
U.S. industry fears China is using discriminatory policies in areas from government procurement to technical standards and tax policy to promote state-owned enterprises at the expense of foreign firms.
U.S. companies also worry that under indigenous innovation, they may be forced to transfer development and ownership of intellectual property to China to participate in the country's huge government procurement market.
President Hu Jintao and other Chinese leaders have indicated goods produced by Chinese affiliates of U.S. and other foreign firms would be considered indigenous innovation products. But the Obama administration and U.S. businesses say they want stronger follow-up from Beijing to ensure that commitment is kept.
RARE EARTHS
China, which controls 97 percent of the world's rare earth supplies, has alarmed its trading partners by restricting exports of the minerals which are used in a variety of clean energy and high-industry technologies.
The U.S. Chamber of Commerce has pressed the United States to secure a commitment from China to remove rare earth export taxes and quotas, and the United Steelworkers union also raised concern about the issue.
China has defended the restrictions as measures to manage supplies and control pollution associated with rare earth production. USTR officials have said they are looking at what action they can take, and note they have challenged other Chinese export restrictions at the WTO.
U.S. EXPORT CONTROLS, INVESTMENT BARRIERS
Beijing complains that Washington, while pushing for greater access for U.S. firms in the Chinese market, imposes unwarranted restrictions on Chinese investment in the United States, often citing national security concerns. China says it wants a level playing field for its investment into the United States.
China says it would buy more from the United States if not for overly restrictive U.S. controls on high-technology goods. The United States says China's argument is overstated. But it is in the process of reforming its export control system, which could lead to increased sales of some less-sensitive items.
Experts say better Chinese protection of U.S. intellectual property is a prerequisite for any major easing of export controls. Without that, say analysts, U.S. tech exports will taper off as Chinese firms copy the products.
(Reporting by Chris Buckley, Editing by Jonathan Thatcher
peplaw06
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Sorry David. I don't look at what you write, then go, "hey David says something I'm unsure of... I should go google it to prove he's right." I see you post conclusions that I am unsure of, and see if you can explain them. And what you do to explain it, is go google it and find an article that talks about trade deficits.
A trade deficit alone doesn't mean we're getting killed on trade. It just means we are purchasing a lot of imported goods or services. If consumers here feel they're getting a better deal on imported goods than they are on domestic goods, then I would say we're getting a benefit from the trade.
All a deficit means is that those other countries across the globe don't import our goods as much as we import theirs. There's probably a list of reasons why that is so. But in the end, if the market didn't bear out that trade was good, then we wouldn't be importing as much.
Look at this paragraph from your article...
A stronger dollar reflects a higher trade deficit... Sounds like a good thing to me. We want the dollar to be strong right?
US companies have weaknesses in major economies overseas? Whose fault is that?
I'm not going to buy hook-line-sinker into the bogeyman as Trump or Sanders would tell you to do. China is screwing us, they say!! Really? How are they screwing us? If they're engaging in unfair trade practices, then let's talk about that. Just like your conclusory opinions aren't compelling, I'm not going to fall into the buzzword trap.
I would be interested to hear your own thoughts on the matter rather than the opinions of the writer from the first hit you find on google.
And I'm the lazy one?
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jnday
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I disagree. There is no other way to look at it other than the "we are getting killed".Sorry David. I don't look at what you write, then go, "hey David says something I'm unsure of... I should go google it to prove he's right." I see you post conclusions that I am unsure of, and see if you can explain them. And what you do to explain it, is go google it and find an article that talks about trade deficits.
A trade deficit alone doesn't mean we're getting killed on trade. It just means we are purchasing a lot of imported goods or services. If consumers here feel they're getting a better deal on imported goods than they are on domestic goods, then I would say we're getting a benefit from the trade.
All a deficit means is that those other countries across the globe don't import our goods as much as we import theirs. There's probably a list of reasons why that is so. But in the end, if the market didn't bear out that trade was good, then we wouldn't be importing as much.
Look at this paragraph from your article...
A stronger dollar reflects a higher trade deficit... Sounds like a good thing to me. We want the dollar to be strong right?
US companies have weaknesses in major economies overseas? Whose fault is that?
I'm not going to buy hook-line-sinker into the bogeyman as Trump or Sanders would tell you to do. China is screwing us, they say!! Really? How are they screwing us? If they're engaging in unfair trade practices, then let's talk about that. Just like your conclusory opinions aren't compelling, I'm not going to fall into the buzzword trap.
I would be interested to hear your own thoughts on the matter rather than the opinions of the writer from the first hit you find on google.
And I'm the lazy one?
ThoughtExperiment
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Agree. How are we getting killed? Because we're a developed, wealthy nation that can't or won't use incredibly cheap labor to lower the cost of goods like a China or Mexico can?
peplaw06
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I'll tell you why we see huge trade deficits. It's because our own government makes it impossible to compete globally with all the taxation and regulations these companies have to deal with. Not to mention if minimum wages go up to $15/hour.
But that's not a trade issue. It's a government overreach issue, and it's domestic. I don't see the need to villify the global markets because they don't hinder their companies from competing.... unless you're trying to drum up support among your electorate.
But that's not a trade issue. It's a government overreach issue, and it's domestic. I don't see the need to villify the global markets because they don't hinder their companies from competing.... unless you're trying to drum up support among your electorate.
Hoofbite
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Couldn't a trade deficit exist for a country simply based on a higher per capita income relative to it's trading partner?
Or to put it another way, couldn't the trade deficit be a reflection of purchasing power? County has more money to spend (to be read as, "population is better off") than it's counterpart so it's people buy more stuff.
Or to put it another way, couldn't the trade deficit be a reflection of purchasing power? County has more money to spend (to be read as, "population is better off") than it's counterpart so it's people buy more stuff.
Bluenoser
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A few thoughts from an outsider.
It seems the USA(politicians) wants to stay the top military power, ahead of Russia and China. Well guess what, not many people would consider those countries a nice place to live. You can't have your military power and be a bunch of hipsters at the sametime. One of the other. In Canada mostly everyone hates Trump, I want him to win because like most have said how can he do much worse? Also the heads exploding would be entertaining.
Sheik talked about producing more products in the States, my question is with all the factories that would pop up how would that effect and the different carbon tax laws?
It seems the USA(politicians) wants to stay the top military power, ahead of Russia and China. Well guess what, not many people would consider those countries a nice place to live. You can't have your military power and be a bunch of hipsters at the sametime. One of the other. In Canada mostly everyone hates Trump, I want him to win because like most have said how can he do much worse? Also the heads exploding would be entertaining.
Sheik talked about producing more products in the States, my question is with all the factories that would pop up how would that effect and the different carbon tax laws?
Sheik
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The problem for me is not so much that there's a huge deficit, it's that it's more attractive for us to bring in most everything we consume. We could put a lot of people to work in this country if our taxes were competitive. Trump is explaining it in it's most simple form. "China bad.", when he saying that, I don't see it as they are bad because they make shit cheaper. They're bad because our tax code is pure shit for business.
It would be a whole other story if we were just consuming way more shit from other countries because we're some bad muthafukas and we can afford it. We're having to do it because businesses are driven away from this country and we still need TVs, cars, and farming equipment.
At some point our tax code has to represent faith in our people. Faith that lower taxes will create more tax payers. As it is, we can't compete globally. This country needs to be run like business, I'll take my chances with a businessman. We've seen what lawyers can do(no offense, Pep).
As it is, there's no end in sight to this disaster we have going on with the political class taking turns fucking us.
Here's three steps that would drastically change the course of this country over the next 15 years:
1. Tax reform. Make our countrie's tax laws conducive to bringing back factory jobs. People will work if there's work to be done.
2. Welfare reform. It should not be as attractive to stay home and pop out kids as it is to earn a living. Welfare should be a program that gets you back on your feet, not one that keeps you on the couch.
3. Stop telling our youth that they all need to go to college to be successful. We're graduating too many kids from universities with mountains of debt. There was a time when kids weren't told that their only option besides college is McDonalds.
I'm voting for Trump like a mfer. Not because he's a small government conservative. I'm doing it because I'm tired of seeing politicians blow it. I'm curious to see if he'll actually curtail the "waste, fraud and abuse", you know, paying $25k for a hammer, shit like that.